Transcript [00:00] A new film portrays Israeli soldiers in [00:03] Gaza to be war criminals. The catch, the [00:06] filmmakers are Israelis themselves. [00:09] Let's hear what one of those Israelis [00:12] had to say. [00:13] >> I want to be very clear. [00:15] This truth has been documented and is [00:18] known from the very first day thanks to [00:20] Palestinian journalists. More than 200 [00:23] of them were killed by Israel in Gaza. [00:28] their voices were silenced and denied. [00:32] We believe that the denial of a crime is [00:34] what helps it persist. And that's why [00:37] it's really really especially important [00:38] for us that Israelis watch this film. [00:41] It's it's our country that is doing [00:42] these crimes. [00:43] >> You know what's interesting is so far [00:45] Israelis have not been able to watch [00:47] this film. It's not been available or [00:49] screened [00:51] in Israel. And so that's very [00:53] interesting that he says he wants [00:54] Israelis to watch the film. Uh but here [00:57] there's unfortunately not a lot new [01:00] often uh Israelis who are on the very [01:02] radical left really outside the [01:04] consensus for people like these [01:06] filmmakers even the left-wing party the [01:09] Democrats the Israeli Democrats that's [01:11] that's too moderate for them. This is [01:13] the hardcore left. They don't have an [01:15] audience in Israel. They go abroad and [01:18] the anti-Israel crowd just cheers them [01:20] along. [01:21] >> Okay. So first of all let's just mention [01:23] the names of these two filmmakers. uh [01:26] Yuvalla Rahham and Rael Sh. Now these [01:29] two radicals uh were sponsored the film [01:33] itself is British actually um and the [01:36] Guardian is one of the sponsors of it. [01:38] It is based on articles that appeared in [01:42] the Guardian and other far-left and in [01:44] an Israeli uh website called 972 very [01:48] radical. Um, it just won a a [01:53] an an award at the Venice Film Festival. [01:56] Uh, a very prestigious award. But not [01:59] only that, it received a 25inut [02:03] standing ovation from the crowd. Um [02:06] because what is being shown in this [02:09] documentary so-called [02:12] is that Israelis are that the soldiers [02:15] in Gaza are using AI to target let's say [02:18] terrorist targets or whatever kamas but [02:21] um actually pay attention to how much [02:24] collateral damage is being done and um [02:27] doesn't care and um is happy to just [02:30] kill children and families of uh [02:33] targeted terrorists. So, of course, this [02:35] is a big lie, but the interesting thing [02:37] is that the people interviewed in this [02:39] film are supposedly um from the uh elite [02:44] unit uh intelligence unit called 8200 [02:49] and they are disguised. They're not [02:51] showing their identities and according [02:53] to them, they participated in this. So, [02:57] uh, that raises many questions. And [02:59] aside from the fact that it's a pack of [03:02] lies, I'd like you to also, uh, address [03:05] what he said about the killing of [03:07] journalists in Gaza. [03:09] >> So, [03:11] let's be very clear on this point. It's [03:14] out there amongst certain circles that [03:17] Israel targets journalists. And he [03:19] repeated that now. He probably believes [03:21] it to be true, but it's not true. uh [03:24] Israel is the only country in the entire [03:27] greater Middle East with a truly free [03:29] press. And the whole idea that Israel [03:30] doesn't respect the free press uh uh is [03:34] is frankly ridiculous. Now, have [03:36] journalists been killed in this war in [03:38] Gaza? The answer is yes. And that is for [03:41] two reasons. There are terrorists who [03:45] are journalists. If you are part of the [03:48] uh Kamas television station, the Kamas [03:51] news network, you're part of Kamas. [03:53] You're putting out terrorist material, [03:57] terrorist communications. You are [03:58] passing Kamas's messages. You also might [04:01] find that during the day you're a [04:03] so-called journalist and at night you're [04:04] a terrorist. You're one of the people [04:06] who massacred Israelis on October 7th. [04:09] So, you can be a terrorist and [04:12] theoretically have a card saying you're [04:13] a journalist, too. So, first of all, if [04:16] the person is a nighttime terrorist and [04:18] a daytime so-called journalist, he's a [04:20] legitimate target. Secondly, I think if [04:24] you're working for a media outlet that [04:25] is pushing Hamas propaganda, you can [04:28] also say you're a a legitimate target [04:31] then too, just as the Nazi broadcasting [04:34] station in the Second World War would [04:35] have been a legitimate target for the [04:37] Allies. You want to disrupt the [04:39] communications network of your enemy. Uh [04:43] I think that's that's very clear. Uh [04:46] have there been journalists caught up in [04:48] the crossfire in Gaza? I'm sure just as [04:50] there have been uh people from other [04:53] professions, just as there have been [04:55] people who are probably teachers or [04:57] social workers, people get killed in [04:59] war. But to say that Israel is [05:01] deliberately targeting journalists is a [05:04] blood label. Once again, we're the only [05:06] country in the Middle East that actually [05:07] respects the free press. On the [05:10] contrary, who doesn't respect the free [05:12] press? [05:14] Kamas. Because if a journalist reports [05:17] uh things that kamas doesn't want you to [05:19] see, [05:21] you won't be reporting the next day. [05:23] Kamas has no independent media. Kamas [05:26] has sorry, Gaza has no independent [05:27] media. Kamas doesn't tolerate it. [05:29] There's no independent civil society in [05:31] Gaza. Kamas doesn't tolerate it. If a [05:33] journalist actually writes a story that [05:35] is critical of Kamas, he won't be there [05:37] tomorrow to write the story. He will [05:39] face consequences. [05:41] It's an authoritarian regime. because [05:43] it's an authoritarian regime. They [05:45] control the pictures that come out of [05:46] Gaza. They control the audio that comes [05:48] out of Gaza. They control the video that [05:50] comes out of Gaza. Why is it that we we [05:52] don't see pictures ever of injured Kamas [05:55] terrorists? Only we see innocent [05:58] civilians who've been hurt in the [05:59] fighting. Why are why are those pictures [06:01] never seen? Because Kamas doesn't want [06:03] you to see the pictures. They only want [06:04] you to see civilians. [06:06] >> And of course, they use those civilians [06:08] as human shields. So, it's a whole [06:10] circular thing. But also, let me point [06:12] out um a well-known Palestinian [06:15] journalist from Gaza was was someone who [06:18] held a hostage in his home, the son of a [06:21] prominent doctor in Gaza, and they held [06:25] hostages in their apartment. So, don't [06:28] tell me doctor or journalist, as far as [06:29] I'm concerned, they're targets. But uh [06:33] aside from that, you know, it's [06:34] interesting how many foreign journalists [06:37] said that we're hiding things and Israel [06:39] won't allow them into the tunnels and [06:42] into Gaza. Now, there were trips of [06:44] journalists into Gaza, but it is true [06:46] that one of the reasons that they were [06:48] forbidden from going there. It was a [06:50] very dangerous war zone and um just [06:54] imagine if you know the BBC journalists [06:56] had been killed going in there from I [06:59] mean so Israel is vilified no matter [07:01] what it does and actually the number of [07:04] um civilian casualties including [07:06] journalists is lower than in any other [07:09] conflict in history. the uh ratio of [07:12] combatants to um to civilians. So, you [07:16] know, we're we keep playing catchup and [07:18] having to say that. But let me make [07:19] another point because we forgot to [07:21] mention here the name of this film. The [07:24] name is Naza. Now, in English that [07:28] doesn't mean anything in Hebrew it is um [07:31] initials and the initials mean agave. [07:35] and a translation into English, a real [07:38] translation, literal translation is [07:40] Collateral Damage. Now, why wouldn't [07:42] they call this movie Collateral Damage [07:45] in English the way you do with other [07:47] films? Translate the title. Well, look [07:50] at how the words Naza appears in [07:53] English. It rhymes with Gaza. It looks [07:55] like Gaza. And the first three letters [07:57] are like Nazi. N A Z. So it's like a [08:01] perfect sort of uh you know it it it's [08:03] it's an image because the word means [08:06] nothing in English. So it it uh and I [08:09] would just like to point out that yes [08:12] Nazi and Gaza do go together cuz the [08:15] Nazi like people in Gaza are kamas not [08:18] the IDF. [08:20] >> So I want to say something about what [08:21] has happened that they got this standing [08:23] ovation in Italy for their movie. And I [08:26] haven't seen the movie but I do know [08:28] from past behavior. Yes, these [08:29] international film festivals because the [08:32] literate Yes. the the the woke uh uh [08:37] artistic community, musical community, [08:40] cinematic community, all these people, [08:42] Israel is bad, Hamas is good, Israel is [08:45] bad, Palestinians are good, Israel can't [08:47] do anything right. So an Israeli film [08:50] will never get a prize now. But e a a [08:54] film that is politically correct on the [08:56] Palestinian issue starts getting awards [08:58] even if they're artistically there's [08:59] nothing there. And we've seen that in [09:01] the past I think recently at the Oscars. [09:03] A so-called documentary which was made [09:05] by an Israeli Palestinian about some [09:07] town on the West Bank. I forgotten the [09:08] details. They get this award for the [09:10] best international film or the best [09:11] documentary. I don't remember what [09:12] category it was. All I'm saying is it [09:16] fits into a certain agenda. And think [09:19] about these two Israeli film directors. [09:21] Yes. who made this movie. They're on the [09:24] far left, the irrelevant far left in [09:26] Israel. As I said, even for them, the [09:27] Democrats are too right-wing. Yes. The [09:30] Democrats who won't say they believe in [09:31] a two-state solution. These are people, [09:33] I mean, these are people really on the [09:35] crazy far left. They probably vote for [09:36] the Communist Party. I guess they vote [09:38] for for if they vote at all. Yes. Uh [09:41] they vote for Israel's Communist Party, [09:42] which is part of the United Arab List. [09:45] Um they feel alone in Israel. They don't [09:48] have a lot of people who support them. [09:49] They really are an insignificant [09:51] political minority. And suddenly they go [09:52] to Europe and they get a standing [09:54] ovation and the anti-Israel, [09:57] anti-ionist, [09:58] heaven forbid, anti-Semitic audience [10:01] gives them a clap and award. Think of [10:02] that what must does for their souls. [10:05] Suddenly they realize that they have [10:07] friends, that they're not alone. And [10:10] this they're the all the silly Israelis [10:12] don't understand their truth. [10:15] The trouble is these are people who fit [10:17] in and fan an agenda which is [10:19] fundamentally hostile to the country [10:21] that they live in. Oh, [10:22] >> absolutely. And this isn't the first [10:24] film that they created that won an award [10:26] and it might be the one you were [10:27] mentioning. Um their previous film that [10:30] won an Academy Award. It won an Oscar [10:32] for best uh I'm not sure if it was [10:35] international film, but it was called um [10:38] Niter, which is no other land, I think [10:41] is how it was translated into English. [10:43] here again that was used a lit a literal [10:47] translation unlike Naza which purposely [10:49] did not use one. Um now not only that [10:53] though this this uh this guy Yuvala [10:56] Vraham uh some people may not make the [10:59] connection but a few months ago a little [11:02] video clip went viral on the internet [11:05] because he took his camera and he [11:08] approached soldiers and he was taunting [11:11] them and you can see him in the clip and [11:13] they're not even going anywhere near [11:15] him. They're just saying back off or [11:17] something. And he yells, "Don't touch [11:20] me. Don't touch me." And he says, "I [11:22] wasn't touching you." And then [11:23] Yuvallahham says, "Don't touch me in a [11:27] sexual way." He actually says that, and [11:30] this clip went viral because the guy, [11:32] you can see in the clip that not only [11:34] was he not being harassed sexually by [11:37] this soldier, the guy the soldier wasn't [11:40] didn't even lay a finger on him. Okay. [11:42] Now, what does that tell you about this [11:44] guy? He he did it because he what he [11:46] wants to say is that Israeli soldiers um [11:49] um commit sexual war crimes. I mean he [11:52] is a vile human being who does this and [11:56] um you know you're right that most [11:59] Israelis are horrified and disgusted. [12:01] We're united on this except for our Arab [12:05] parties uh including the Arab party uh [12:10] headed by Mansur Abbas whose number two [12:13] is an Israeli Jew uh because Mansur [12:17] Abbas is also Israeli. He's an [12:18] Arab-Israeli, but he has his number two [12:21] named uh Yav Sealovich who used to be a [12:24] high um official in the Israel police [12:27] who was up until 5 minutes ago uh [12:30] basically in in laid in the opposition [12:33] in Laid's uh Yeseshhat party which is [12:36] considered centrist. Of course I [12:38] consider it leftist but never mind. And [12:40] so that you're talking about parties [12:43] that have not come out to condemn it at [12:45] all. nor has the head of the party [12:48] called the Democrats headed by Ya Golan [12:52] and it's no wonder because Yer Golan [12:53] himself said during the war something [12:56] like oh I don't want to live in a [12:57] country that uh kills Palestinian babies [13:01] as a hobby and this guy golani used to [13:04] be the uh the deputy chief of staff of [13:09] the Israeli army so you're talking about [13:12] extremists in um Israeli politics [13:16] some of whom are pretending not to be [13:18] extremists now. Um, but the government [13:22] now, the Israeli government and army are [13:24] they've been having many meetings [13:25] deciding what what are we supposed to do [13:27] about this? So, let's look. [13:28] >> Can I just I want to respond to we'll go [13:30] to tech. I want to respond to something [13:32] I think needs to be added to our [13:34] conversation before we discuss the [13:35] Israeli response. [13:36] >> Okay? [13:38] because I think there's something uh [13:40] that has to be said about this standing [13:43] ovation and that the fact that a film [13:45] like this gets this award and as you [13:48] said and I said this is not the first [13:50] time that these sort of films get you [13:51] know they get awards and they get credit [13:53] that from an artistic point of view they [13:55] don't deserve it's because of an agenda. [13:58] There's a myth about anti-semitism [14:01] which is a very comfortable myth and [14:03] that is that the anti-semmites are the [14:05] uncouthered [14:08] the unwashed and the uneducated right [14:11] that they're all skin heads with tattoos [14:13] who didn't finish uh you say in [14:16] Australia and in Britain primary school [14:18] and in Britain and in US you say [14:20] elementary school that these are the [14:22] people who are the anti-semmites the [14:24] neo-Nazis the people who throw bombs at [14:26] Jews and so forth [14:28] The truth is it's a myth. [14:31] Historically, anti-semitism has [14:33] flourished amongst intellectual circles [14:36] against artistic and cultural [14:38] leadership. And you just look at people [14:40] like DSTski or the father of the French [14:43] Enlightenment, Voltater, and the father [14:45] of modern socialism, Karl Marx, who's [14:47] got a terrible treaty called on the [14:49] Jewish question, right? Uh even [14:52] Shakespeare I mean you can be nicer to [14:54] Shakespeare if you want to and say he [14:55] was only reflecting the anti-semitism of [14:57] the time in the merchant of Venice. Yes. [14:59] But it he in his writing anti-semit [15:03] >> Venice like where the film festival [15:05] >> like the film festival was all I'm [15:07] saying is I know in the 1930s [15:11] anti-semitic fascism Nazism was very [15:14] popular on German universities on [15:16] European universities [15:18] um the in the cultural communities [15:22] vagna [15:25] uh [15:26] the whole idea that somehow these [15:28] educated people who for coming to a film [15:30] festival and have all got degrees and [15:32] post-graduate degrees and are famous [15:33] artists and literary people that somehow [15:36] they're immune from anti-semitic is is [15:39] simply anti-semitism is simply a myth [15:42] and we have to I mean you look at [15:43] America where was all this anti-Israel [15:46] anti-Zionist anti-semitic on university [15:48] campuses [15:49] >> and it's very convenient I mean I know [15:51] there are Jewish communities across the [15:53] world that building Holocaust museums [15:55] that make people understand we can [15:56] educate them and so forth I am a touch [16:00] cynical if any amount of education can [16:03] fight the oldest hatred in history. [16:07] >> You're absolutely right. And before we [16:09] get to uh Prime Minister Netanyahu and [16:11] what he said about this film, uh I I'd [16:15] like to add that the real trouble is [16:18] when anti-semitism in the West uh since [16:20] World War II, after World War II, it [16:23] became taboo in, you know, polite [16:26] society. Uh, of course there were always [16:28] anti-semites, though a lot of that [16:30] disappeared and dissipated. Uh, but the [16:33] point is it was really not done. You did [16:36] not uh talk about Jew hatred. You didn't [16:40] express Jew hatred in public at all. And [16:43] um the shocking thing that happened in [16:45] America in the west in America not only [16:48] in Europe was that after October 7th [16:51] when so many Jews and Israelis were [16:54] slaughtered and kidnapped and raped and [16:56] all of that rather than the response [17:00] being wow this is terrible uh the it was [17:04] almost as though it gave permission to [17:06] the anti-semites to come out in full [17:09] swing on the campuses everywhere and [17:11] then it became became as opposed to [17:13] unfashionable, it became fashionable. [17:17] And the taboo after World War II has [17:20] totally disappeared. [17:21] >> And and the truth is people of our [17:23] generation, Ruthie, I remember we grew [17:26] up and what were the cultural uh [17:27] discussions about Israel? It was Exodus. [17:29] It was the book by Leon Norris or it was [17:31] Paul Newman playing Ari Ben. Yes. And [17:36] then the cultural erony [17:41] was Israel is a good thing. Then it was [17:44] Zionism is a good thing. The Jews [17:45] finally got a land that they deserved [17:47] after the Holocaust. Right? That was [17:48] part of the cultural ethos of the time. [17:51] I remember when I showed up first year [17:53] at Melbourne University in Australia. I [17:55] sat in a political science class next to [17:57] a fellow student and we were making [17:58] polite conversation because we didn't [17:59] know each other. And she asked me where [18:01] were you, you know, last year where and [18:03] I said I was a year in Israel. And she [18:04] said the first thing she said to me, [18:05] I've read Exodus, right? And and today [18:09] unfortunately the cultural millure has [18:12] changed. Not Leonurus, not Exodus, but [18:15] any anti-Israel diet tribe can be sure [18:19] to get a very positive uh very very [18:23] welcoming. Yes. At any film festival, [18:26] and we saw this at Venice, we saw it in [18:28] the past at the Oscars. Unfortunately, [18:30] that's where we are today. It's like [18:33] 180°. of where things were in the 60s [18:35] and the 70s, [18:36] >> right? Well, of course, after the six [18:38] day war, things began to shift. And I [18:41] know in the United States, for example, [18:43] um up until that point, the Democratic [18:46] Party, the left in America was very pro [18:49] pro-Israel. And after that, [18:51] >> I want to interrupt you. It's I I [18:52] disagree to a certain extent. Why? [18:55] Because after the inbi raid of of 1976, [18:59] >> 1976, yeah, [19:00] >> which was the of course the bsentinary [19:02] 50 years ago now. Yes. There was a whole [19:04] series of movies. They weren't [19:06] necessarily very good. NBC, ABC, and [19:09] they had mass audiences. People like the [19:11] Israelis when they were fighting. That's [19:12] after the six day war. [19:13] >> That that that absolutely the antibbi [19:16] raid was a surge in um amazement at the [19:20] brilliance of that operation of the [19:22] antibbi oper of intebi raid. Everybody [19:24] thought of it as miraculous which it was [19:26] by the way. Um but the the the climate [19:31] the intellectual climate about whether [19:34] that Israel had started to become the [19:36] bad guy that started to shift after 1967 [19:40] and and certainly and after 1973 and [19:43] when Israelis started to get demoralized [19:45] by having been uh taken by surprise and [19:48] the Yom Kipper war. And whenever Israel [19:51] is demoralized, not fighting proudly, uh [19:55] the world responds as well. Like we see [19:57] that with October 7th, we were kind of [19:59] we on the one end we've been fighting [20:01] bravely and all that and proudly, but on [20:04] the other we were demoralized by the [20:06] shock of it. So let's but here let's [20:09] let's hear what um Prime Minister [20:11] Netanyahu had to say uh a part of what [20:14] he had to say in response to to Naza. [20:38] So I think the prime minister I mean as [20:40] you know like President Trump in the [20:42] United States [20:44] Prime Minister Netanyahu is a polarizing [20:46] figure and often he will you know when [20:49] he speaks, he energizes his supporters [20:50] and he energizes the people who don't [20:52] like him. But I think on this comment, [20:55] there is a national consensus. There is [20:57] a national consensus. Once again, leave [20:59] out the far radical left. Yes. But [21:01] there's a consensus, you know, and I [21:03] heard a politician this morning from one [21:05] of the opposition parties saying the [21:06] film's disgusting and and so forth and [21:08] so on. And and here Netanyahu is truly, [21:12] I think, speaking for for the people of [21:13] Israel. uh the minister of culture uh [21:17] went a bit further and he said he called [21:20] the the film makers traitors and he said [21:24] we should talk about u taking away their [21:28] Israeli citizenship and I I think he was [21:31] speaking in Trumpian terms being [21:33] metaphorically because of course you [21:34] can't do that the international law says [21:36] you can't make someone stateless if they [21:38] don't have another passport we had the [21:39] issue with the Israeli Arab citizens who [21:42] were involved in terrorism actually [21:43] killing people and you can't take away [21:45] the citizenship of someone legally [21:48] unless they've got another citizenship. [21:49] But I think also the Minister of Culture [21:50] was expressing a an outrage [21:54] uh at at these two people. And the truth [21:57] is I think there's very little Israel [21:58] actually can do about it because we live [22:00] in a democracy and if people want to be [22:02] anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and and and [22:05] consort with anti-semmites, that's their [22:07] prerogative in a democracy. I don't have [22:10] another solution except that I'm glad to [22:12] say that the number of people who will [22:15] see this this anti-Israel diet tribe yes [22:17] is is probably a fraction of a fraction [22:19] of a fraction of the amount of people [22:20] who let's say will see the new season of [22:22] FA which which in many ways it's it's [22:24] not self-critical I mean it's it's sorry [22:27] it's it can be very self-critical FA yes [22:29] but it does give I think a more genuine [22:31] picture [22:32] >> not only that no this latest episode of [22:34] FA shows October 7th using also a lot of [22:37] real footage Yes. [22:38] >> So people were saying a lot of response [22:41] on the internet since it really is a [22:43] brilliant show was that um that FA does [22:47] more for Israel's uh public diplomacy [22:50] and image than any you know than any [22:53] intellectuals any any you know [22:56] >> but it can be self-critical fo it's not [22:58] propaganda [22:59] >> it is but it is and it's very popular in [23:01] the Arab world that show but it does [23:03] show uh there are people who responded [23:05] on the internet saying wow we didn't [23:07] realize realize how horrible October 7th [23:10] was and that is really uh sad that they [23:13] didn't and they need to see a dramatized [23:16] show in order to but okay we know it. I [23:19] just would like to take issue with one [23:20] tiny thing you said and I um maybe you [23:22] didn't mean it that way. You said that [23:25] Netanyahu can be a polarizing figure. [23:27] Well, I disagree. I think that Netanyahu [23:29] is not a polarizing figure. I think that [23:32] his enemies accuse him of being a [23:35] polarizing figure. Yes, Israel is [23:38] polarized the way the United States is. [23:39] Today in the world there's I would say [23:41] most of the world is polarized [23:43] politically, especially as saying in [23:45] democracies, right? Um we all know that [23:48] there's there there's severe splits and [23:50] rifts. It's not like, oh, we're all [23:52] united and all that, but I don't see [23:55] Netanyahu as being the polarizing [23:58] figure. If anything, he's always tried [24:01] to kind of um to to walk the the middle [24:06] line. Um he's really is, in my opinion, [24:09] the true center, which is why a lot of [24:11] right-wingers don't like him. [24:12] >> Can I just respond to that because [24:15] I didn't say that he is decided to be a [24:18] polarizing figure. I'm saying he is a [24:20] polarizing figure and he himself has [24:22] admitted that. He was asked by [24:23] journalists in interviews and he says of [24:25] course um if I wouldn't be polarizing if [24:27] I didn't do anything but because I'm [24:29] pushing policies I believe in the people [24:31] who disagree with those policies don't [24:33] like me and there's also the issue that [24:36] he's been there for a long time and a [24:37] lot of people say but that's a whole [24:39] different discussion. Let's go back [24:40] let's go back to the fact that most [24:42] Israel now here the thing is I also [24:44] thought that was foolish to say that [24:45] they had to be stripped of their [24:46] citizenship. Well, for a few reasons. [24:49] Among them, among them, uh, before those [24:52] two clowns have their citizen, Israeli [24:55] citizenship stripped, I would have a [24:57] long line of other people that come [24:59] before them. Uh, including those whose [25:02] salaries I pay because they sit in the [25:05] kadeset and they are anti-ionist and [25:07] anti-semitic and want to destroy the [25:09] country. Uh now if these two fit the [25:12] description of um treason or traitors [25:15] which they might because the law is very [25:17] very clear it's though you know legally [25:20] language is hard to understand. So I was [25:22] reading the the law and I had trouble [25:24] understanding it and it's hard to know [25:27] unless because here's the question in [25:30] the film there are a few questions about [25:31] this film. First, there are the 24 [25:34] people interviewed in it who are who are [25:39] uh masked. You know, their voices are [25:41] disguised and they're they're [25:42] camouflaged and all that. They claim to [25:46] have been part of this in the army and [25:48] know all of this stuff from inside [25:50] information having used these [25:52] techniques, these AI techniques to uh [25:55] figure out where uh about different [25:57] houses in Gaza. Now, one question is, [26:00] wait a second, wait a second. So, you [26:02] took part in this? Are you saying that [26:04] you're you yourself are a war criminal? [26:06] If so, why didn't you come forward? Why [26:09] aren't you under arrest? Second, who are [26:12] you? Maybe these are not people who [26:14] actually worked because they say things [26:16] that are completely not tr untrue. um I [26:19] don't mean from a point of view of pro [26:21] or anti-Israel that are factually [26:23] incorrect about the method used to do [26:27] what we do to avoid civilian casualties [26:31] of the AI is used to avoid civilian [26:34] casualties. So the the other question is [26:37] maybe those guys don't maybe they are [26:39] janitors who work in that we we don't [26:41] know who they are [26:42] >> and we also know you said it yourself a [26:44] minute ago we know that this director [26:46] this Yuval Abraham fellow you say [26:49] there's documented proof that he [26:51] actually stages things [26:53] >> so is it not conceivable that he [26:55] actually staged these so-called [26:56] anonymous witnesses I do know the army's [26:59] investigating it [27:00] >> yes [27:00] >> uh to see if there were people I mean [27:02] let let's be clear and we We both worked [27:05] for the governments once. When you work [27:06] for the government, you are constrained [27:08] of what you you know, not everyone can [27:10] tell everything. You're privy to inside [27:12] information, right? There there's a you [27:16] can be a whistleblower, but at least [27:17] then you have to right there. But you [27:19] have an obligation and especially [27:21] military and military secrets and so [27:22] forth. Uh and that's why the army is [27:24] investigating are these actually real [27:26] people and did they in talking to Yuva [27:29] Lavram have they breached their their [27:31] their commitments to to to be in the [27:33] security services? [27:34] >> Oh absolutely. But so the question is [27:36] here if you forget about the directors [27:38] the question is what should happen to [27:40] the interviewees. Okay. So first you [27:42] have to figure out who they are. I'm [27:43] sure there's a way to find out. I don't [27:45] know. I'm sure there's these days it's [27:47] pretty easy to track down people. Right. [27:50] So so first you have to figure out who [27:52] they are. Then you have to figure out um [27:54] are they revealing secrets or are they [27:57] making them up in either it's bad either [28:00] way right? So so um but again are they [28:04] if they are saying we committed war [28:07] crimes then why aren't you in jail? [28:11] Maybe those 24, let's say, let's say [28:13] just for the sake of argument that they [28:15] were whistleblowing, not lying. Then why [28:18] didn't they come? Why didn't they refuse [28:20] orders at that time? You mean now you're [28:23] going to hide your face and say, "Yeah, [28:25] we participated in in war crimes." [28:28] There's something very sick about it [28:30] altogether because if you're a [28:31] whistleblower, it's perfectly [28:33] legitimate. If you think um and and [28:36] again I'm totally pro IDF, but let's say [28:39] I believed if I were inside the IDF and [28:42] I thought that I was getting orders that [28:45] were illegal or unjust or unethical, [28:48] whatever you want to say. You know, we [28:49] we saw with the Nazis saying I just [28:53] followed orders is not acceptable [28:55] >> in Israel. Not at all. [28:56] >> It's not acceptable. So if you really [28:59] believed that what you were doing was a [29:01] crime, where the hell were you? This war [29:03] has been going on for three years. [29:05] >> And even more so, we have a very [29:07] independent branch of the the military [29:10] uh that deals with these legal issues. [29:12] Uh we have a judge advocate general who [29:15] who was very ambitious to prosecute [29:18] Israelis accused of wrongdoing and even [29:21] leaking incorrectly [29:24] and illegally what they were accused of. [29:27] and and and all say if Mark Regger or [29:30] Ruthie Bloom got inside information that [29:32] we found was morally disturbing. There [29:34] are there are hundred legitimate avenues [29:37] you can go to and the human rights [29:39] people in Israel will adopt you as a [29:41] hero, right? But to speak anonymously to [29:44] two anti-Israel activists who are known [29:46] for being problematic characters, right? [29:49] Well, it it lacks a certain right and [29:52] and if there are problems in Israel and [29:54] you want to change them, you go overseas [29:55] to the Venice Film Festival. You don't [29:57] raise it with the Israeli media. You [30:00] don't raise it in Israel. You don't go [30:02] to the Knesset and talk about it. In [30:03] other words, it raises all these [30:07] question marks. Look, we're coming to [30:08] the end of our time, Ruthie, and I want [30:10] to say something that you probably [30:12] disagree with. [30:14] >> I this film and all this Naza business. [30:18] Yes. [30:19] Uh uh I I find it very difficult to get [30:21] truly excited about the issue. First of [30:24] all, there's nothing new here. There [30:26] have always been people on the crazy [30:29] radical left anti-ionist in Israel [30:33] who have practically no community in [30:35] Israel at all, no support in Israel, [30:37] going overseas and they find lots of [30:39] people in Western Europe, in Britain [30:42] here. In this case, the the Guardian [30:44] newspaper loves these people and they [30:46] find a community and they find [30:48] solidarity and they love it [30:49] >> and money [30:49] >> and money and fame, right? And if you've [30:53] got an ego, it's very good for your ego [30:55] to get a standing ovation, right? For [30:56] all these and and there's nothing new [30:58] here. And it's happened before and it'll [31:01] happen again and at film festivals and [31:03] at literary festivals, right? and and [31:05] the idea, you know, [31:07] a Palestinian poet can write mediocre [31:10] poetry, but because he or she is [31:12] Palestinian, they're international [31:14] stars. And it's the it's the it's the [31:16] poetry of resistance. Yes. And the same [31:20] with an Israeli who who like these two [31:22] people. What are they called again? [31:24] Yuval and Rael. Well, it it's the same [31:28] phenomenon, but I just I don't think [31:30] it's a game changer. It's more of the [31:32] same. It's annoying. It's frustrating, [31:34] but let's keep things under perspective, [31:37] right? Israel is winning this war. [31:39] Israel is strong. Israel is democratic. [31:42] We're going to elections. What is it in [31:44] less than 50 days now? Uh Israel has a [31:47] vibrantly free press. Maybe more free [31:49] now than ever before because we've got [31:51] new a whole, you know, in the past maybe [31:53] the press was more hegimmonic in one [31:55] political political one specific [31:57] political direction. Today it's much [31:59] more pluralistic than it ever was [32:00] before. uh um uh the whole idea yes that [32:05] somehow Israel is losing this and we [32:07] have to be upset about the future of our [32:09] country and concerned right on the [32:11] contrary there's every reason to be [32:13] optimistic [32:14] >> okay so by the way just I want to end to [32:17] say that I don't disagree with you [32:18] you'll be surprised I think I'm a little [32:21] surprised why this caused such a storm [32:23] when there's so much of that and has [32:26] been so much of that going on including [32:28] from Israelis themselves um but and The [32:31] disturbing part for me is not Israel's [32:33] losing the war, Israel is weakened. It's [32:36] the global anti-semitism that does worry [32:39] me. And I'm not saying that I know what [32:41] to do about it, but I am saying that it [32:44] is very disturbing. Yes. [32:46] >> And that standing ovation is a is a [32:49] manifestation of that. Right. [32:51] >> Correct. [32:51] >> Right. these two Israelis [32:54] who only have terrible, nasty, negative, [32:59] belligerent things to say about their [33:01] own country. Right. They're getting the [33:03] standing ovation in a one of Europe's [33:06] cultural centers. Yes. Venice. Correct. [33:10] You have to ask, I don't think it's [33:11] Israel's problem. It's actually Europe's [33:13] problem. What's going on amongst the [33:16] European cultural elite? [33:20] >> Absolutely. Okay. So until next week, [33:22] Mark and um I would also like to say um [33:25] that if you enjoyed this program, please [33:27] like and subscribe and we'll see you [33:30] next time. [33:31] >> And those of you who are fasting, and [33:34] all the Jews should, of course, I well [33:37] over the fast.
