Transcript [00:00] Wherever you're listening in the world, [00:01] it's a pleasure to welcome you to [00:02] Israelcast, the podcast powered by [00:04] Jewish National Fund USA, your voice in [00:07] Israel. I'm Steven Shallowitz and on [00:09] this episode, our featured guest is [00:11] Roberto Rosenthal Quall, the Raymond [00:13] Puro professor at Paulal University [00:16] College of Law. One of today's main [00:18] voices on the state of American jewelry. [00:20] Professor Qual is the author of Remix [00:22] Judaism: Preserving Tradition in a [00:25] Diverse World. And her latest book, Hot [00:27] Off the Presses, and what we'll be [00:29] talking about is titled Polarized: Why [00:31] American Jews Are Divided and What to Do [00:33] About It. It's published by Bloomsbury [00:35] Press. And I urge you to pick up a copy [00:38] wherever you like to buy your books. And [00:39] Professor Call joins us now on the line [00:41] via Zoom from my hometown, Chicago. [00:44] Welcome to the program. Thanks so much [00:46] for joining us. [00:47] >> Thank you so much for having me, [00:49] Stephen. and it's a pleasure to be with [00:50] you today. [00:51] >> Well, I'm really looking forward to the [00:52] conversation and to digging into the [00:54] book. And before we begin our [00:56] conversation indeed for you, our [00:57] wonderful Israel Cast community, I've [00:59] known Professor Quall for 10,000 years. [01:02] So, I'll be referring to her as Bobby, [01:04] which is what she is known to by family [01:07] and friends. So, just getting that one [01:09] out of the way. Plus, I want to remind [01:11] you that for over 125 years, Jewish [01:13] National Fund USA has been the premier [01:16] philanthropic movement for the land and [01:18] people of Israel. While best known for [01:20] planting trees in Israel, JNFUSA [01:22] contributes to Israeli life in so many [01:24] ways, including community development in [01:27] the negative in the Galilee. [01:28] Preservation of heritage sites, [01:30] supporting people with disabilities, [01:32] connecting high school and college [01:33] students to Israel, so important in [01:35] helping our brothers and sisters in need [01:37] following the heinous October 7th [01:39] terrorist attack. To learn more and to [01:41] see how you can contribute, do visit [01:43] jnf.org. [01:45] Once again, jnf.org. Plus, if you [01:47] haven't done so already, we'd love it if [01:48] you subscribed, rated, and reviewed us. [01:50] Five stars, of course, wherever you get [01:52] your podcast. We'd love it, too, if you [01:54] shared the show within your orbit. And [01:56] with that, we once again welcome [01:58] Professor Roberta Rosenthal Qual, also [02:01] known as Bobby, to the program. Bobby, [02:03] congrats on the book. And as I mentioned [02:05] to you yesterday, I can tell the amount [02:07] of research and thought that went into [02:09] the work. And there are so many [02:10] important ideas in the book. And that's [02:12] why I want everyone within earshot and [02:14] viewing shot to pick up a copy of the [02:17] book. But as we begin the conversation, [02:20] if you can really take us back and share [02:22] the need you saw in writing the book in [02:24] the first place because you really [02:25] started it before October 7th. [02:28] >> I did. Um I started thinking about um [02:33] this book um right after remix Judaism [02:36] was published because you always want to [02:38] be thinking about your next project of [02:39] course, right? That's what right us [02:41] writers do. Um and I actually at that [02:45] point um you know this was the late uh [02:49] 2010s around 2019 right before co um [02:53] which is when Remix launched right [02:55] literally right before co right so [02:57] >> when everyone was at home reading so [02:58] that was actually a good time. Yeah, but [03:00] it killed my whole book launch because [03:02] [laughter] [03:02] on Zoom. [03:03] >> You weren't able to go on tour, [03:04] >> right? Although I did on Zoom, but [03:07] regardless, but I was thinking about [03:08] polarization. And that was a really [03:10] interesting moment because what we were [03:12] beginning to see at that time was an [03:16] increasing sensorious culture. By that I [03:19] mean, you know, there there was a lot of [03:22] conversations that were once considered [03:24] totally fine and respectable. viewpoint [03:27] diversity was something that you know [03:29] especially in legal education is so [03:31] critical. Um and we were beginning to [03:34] see signs that that was changing a [03:36] little bit and that started to happen I [03:38] would say in the very very late uh 2010s [03:42] um and then really picking up um [03:45] especially after the murder of George [03:47] Floyd and in those first few years um of [03:50] the of the 2020s. Um, and there was a [03:52] really interesting article that I had [03:54] read actually by Jonathan Height and it [03:56] was in uh The Atlantic and it was called [03:58] something like why the past 10 years had [04:00] been so uniquely stupid. Um, this was in [04:03] 20 I think it came out in 2022 and it [04:05] really talked about this this [04:07] counterproductive culture that we were [04:10] seeing and that culture really began to [04:13] ramp up especially again in legal [04:15] education. So, for example, I would be [04:18] talking to professors, liberal [04:20] professors, because most law professors [04:22] are, um, who teach in the criminal area, [04:25] and they were saying things like, "I [04:27] can't teach my criminal law class the [04:29] way I want to. I can't teach criminal [04:32] procedure." Now, this wasn't affecting [04:33] me. Um, because, you know, I teach [04:35] property law. Um, I do teach family law, [04:38] but but the the real more challenging [04:41] family law issues. Yeah, we had gay [04:43] marriage. That's true. But that wasn't [04:44] this wasn't really affecting what I was [04:47] doing in class. It was affecting other [04:48] professors. And I thought that was [04:50] really I thought that was really [04:52] interesting because it's so [04:53] counterproductive to legal education. So [04:56] I actually thought about writing a book [04:58] on polarization in terms of the larger [05:01] country as we were seeing this trend. [05:03] Now, one thing I will just add um is [05:06] that uh in in no way did this sensorious [05:09] culture that I'm describing when it came [05:11] to anti-semitism and there was that [05:14] burge that was beginning to start [05:15] burgeoning as well, although not nearly [05:18] as much as after October 7th. Um then we [05:22] really didn't see that kind of a [05:24] sensorious culture. In other words, that [05:25] was absent from from the discourse [05:28] typically, but it did manifest in other [05:30] ways. Um, you know, my agent at that [05:33] point said, you know, you've really [05:34] developed an expertise in American [05:36] Judaism. Why not just stick with [05:38] polarization of that community? And, you [05:41] know, I was really leaning in that [05:43] direction. And then October 7th [05:45] happened. And for me, that was that even [05:48] though I was already had decided to just [05:50] look at the American Jewish community, [05:52] that really was the clincher um for me [05:55] um when when it came to that. And [05:59] I, you know, I I I definitely made the [06:02] right decision in no question about it. [06:04] And one of the things that I think it's [06:07] important to highlight, especially here [06:08] at the beginning of our discussion, is [06:10] that American Jewish polarization in [06:13] many ways does track the larger country. [06:15] So I really kind of got to do both, [06:18] right? But it's also unique. There's a [06:21] uniqueness which we will talk about [06:22] during our conversation. [06:24] >> Absolutely. And that's really a nice way [06:26] of dovetailing into sort of the next [06:28] topic that I wanted to bring up in that [06:30] and I know this is a really really broad [06:32] question but if you can kind of offer up [06:34] the landscape of American jewelry today [06:37] from both a religious perspective and a [06:39] political perspective and how that as [06:42] you use the word stew really comes [06:45] together. [06:46] >> Okay. Sure. and the and the term that I [06:48] that I came up with to to describe this [06:51] and again this what this I call it the [06:53] political religious stew, right? And [06:56] that term applies both to to to [06:59] Americans generally as well as to [07:02] American Jews. Uh okay. And so what do I [07:05] mean by that? Well, first of all, um I [07:07] want to just backtrack a little bit [07:09] before I explain what that political [07:11] religious stew is. And I want to [07:13] emphasize because I think this is a [07:14] really significant point that the nature [07:16] of polarization has really changed uh [07:20] dramatically even over the past you know [07:24] I would say um at this point maybe seven [07:29] to eight years. So there it's been it's [07:31] the escalation has been dramatic. All [07:34] right. So what do I mean by that? So [07:38] there's uh research that has been done [07:40] by Northwestern professor uh Ellie [07:42] Finkel um who teaches in the uh [07:44] political psychology uh realm of at that [07:47] university and what he's uh established [07:50] through his research is that um uh [07:53] there's an increasing sectarian quality [07:56] to the polarization and by that what he [07:59] means and this is again the general [08:01] polarization he's not speaking [08:02] specifically of the Jewish community but [08:04] it applies as well and he and What he [08:07] means by this sectarianism that is [08:09] increasing is there's a tendency to to [08:12] look at the side with with which you do [08:14] not agree as the other as the morally [08:18] bankrupt um as those who you should have [08:22] to with whom you should have an [08:23] aversion. It's the othering that type of [08:26] quality that sectarianism [08:29] that's what he feels is relatively new [08:32] and that's been supported by other [08:34] research too. So in 2023 there was a [08:37] nonpartisan survey by by NORC that [08:40] showed that only and this is amazing [08:43] only 58% of Americans [08:47] um deemed tolerance for others as being [08:52] important. Only 58% of Americans believe [08:55] tolerance for others is important. Four [08:57] years before it was 80%. That's a pretty [09:00] big shift. So it's really what what that [09:04] really is showing is that there's this [09:05] legitimization [09:07] of sectarianism, okay, of [09:09] [clears throat] the othering, of the [09:10] aversion. It's not just that we [09:12] disagree. It's that you are a morally [09:14] bankrupt person if you do not agree with [09:16] me. That escalates the discourse and [09:19] that makes the polarization even more [09:22] toxic than it had been previously. So [09:24] we're seeing an increase with respect to [09:27] that. Okay. Now part of what fuels this [09:31] um and and again Jonathan Hyde's book [09:35] the righteous mind which was written in [09:37] 2012 the whole full title and I think [09:40] it's a I want to say the full title [09:41] because it bears on what we're talking [09:42] about is the righteous mind why good [09:45] people are divided by politics and [09:47] religion. Okay. So that was really the [09:49] first book that I read when I was going [09:52] to re when I really was going to [09:53] research this topic. And it's a [09:54] magnificent book. It's not a beach read [09:56] at all. It's it's it's it's it's it's [09:58] but it's it's wonderful and and it's [10:01] interesting because he he come he and a [10:03] co-author of his Richard Schwider come [10:06] up come come up with three um what he [10:08] calls moral ethics and he says that [10:11] these the following three moral ethics [10:14] really define human behavior. So one is [10:18] autonomy, one is divinity, [10:22] divinity and one is community. And he [10:25] says really all of human behavior can be [10:28] understood [10:30] by the pre the regard or perhaps [10:33] disregard of given groups for these [10:36] three what he calls ethics of morality [10:39] which I thought was a really interesting [10:42] insight. Um he also goes on to say all [10:46] right and this is the beginning of the [10:48] uh discussion on the melding of the [10:51] political religious stew. Okay, we see a [10:53] little bit of the religion creeping in [10:54] by those three ethics, right? But he [10:57] also then talks about um [11:00] a a term that he comes up with that that [11:04] ba and he basically the term is weird. [11:06] Okay, now we all know what weird means [11:08] but when he's using the term this is [11:11] what he means. Western, [11:13] >> W [11:14] >> W E educated, I industrialized, [11:19] RI, [11:21] D democratic. [11:24] And basically his point is that most of [11:27] the um psychological research is [11:30] performed uh in on on in western [11:33] countries on weird people. All right? [11:37] And so that was a problem for him [11:39] because he really didn't have a window [11:42] to study non-weird people where the [11:44] ethic of community and certainly [11:47] divinity might be more prominent [11:50] predominant. So he actually spent six [11:53] months perhaps in India really seeing [11:56] another culture firsthand. And he has a [11:58] wonderful quote in his book which I I [12:00] think is really awesome where he said [12:02] you know when I came back to the states [12:04] after spending this time in India social [12:07] conservatives no longer seem so crazy [12:11] now we you know most of us don't have [12:13] the ability to just spend six months in [12:15] another even most academics can't just [12:17] leave for six months and you know spend [12:19] time in in another culture but I think [12:21] the ability that he had to really get a [12:24] window into how people can think very [12:26] differently and still be good people is [12:29] something that is definitely we are in [12:31] very very very strong need of thatdeed [12:34] culture. [12:35] >> So what that setup really reminds us is [12:40] that that the the religion and the [12:43] politics really do merge together and [12:46] therefore it's not surprising when you [12:49] look at the statistics um today. All [12:52] right. Um, in the United States, you [12:55] know, it's still pretty much give or [12:57] take. 50% of the country, you know, [13:00] skews more conservative, 50% skews more [13:03] democratic. U politically and [13:06] religiously in the United States, that's [13:09] an interesting question. Um, for most of [13:11] the time I was writing this book, um, I [13:14] was reading a lot of articles, [13:15] particularly um, from Christian authors [13:17] saying, "Oh, you know, Christianity is [13:18] declining. Interest in Christianity is [13:20] declining." But then the last year I was [13:23] writing this. So that's a problem with [13:24] multi-year books that you're writing [13:26] because things change, [clears throat] [13:27] right? And so I did have to go back and [13:30] and really um uh rephrase some of the [13:34] language in terms of Christianity that I [13:37] have in the introductory chapter where I [13:39] introduce all these ideas because [13:42] Christianity all of a sudden began to be [13:44] a little bit on the upswing. you know, [13:46] you'd be seeing articles about how [13:48] Catholic young Catholic women are now [13:50] veiling and there's a resurgence of [13:52] young people going to church. Um, and [13:55] and there there was a great story that I [13:58] have in the book uh written by Olivia [14:00] Ryold, who who works at the Free Press [14:02] about this uh 25-hour revival at some [14:06] southern campus. I mean, it was very [14:08] >> Is that part of the Charlie Kirk effect, [14:10] you think? [14:10] >> Well, that was it. No, this was before [14:12] Charlie Kirk and then Charlie Kirk's [14:13] assassination just exacerbated that [14:16] trend. So, we don't know where that's [14:17] going to end up, but I thought that was [14:19] an interesting change in what I was [14:22] seeing. Now, let's talk about the [14:24] American Jewish community, right? So, [14:26] unlike [14:28] Americans generally, which are pretty [14:30] much 5050, at least politically, Jews do [14:33] not skew that way. All right? And so [14:35] this probably won't surprise most [14:36] people, but Jews are I I have a [14:40] subheading in the book saying Jews are [14:42] weird, right? And what I mean by that [14:44] is, you know, predominantly 23s of [14:48] American Jews, even among among the Jews [14:52] who are the most connected to Judaism, [14:54] okay? Meaning they're not the Jews of no [14:56] religion, they are the most connected, [14:58] twothirds of them favor the Democratic [15:00] Party. This has been a longstanding [15:03] preference. There have been books [15:04] written about it. There have been [15:05] surveys done. Twothirds of American Jews [15:09] favor the Democratic Party. Um, in [15:12] contrast, about 75% of Orthodox Jews um [15:18] tend to favor the Republican party. And [15:20] Orthodox Jews constitute, give or take, [15:24] about 10% of an American jury. But that [15:27] number is growing because you're having [15:29] a larger number of younger people [15:31] identify as Orthodox. But generally [15:33] speaking, the Orthodox population in the [15:35] United States is give or take 10%. And [15:39] roughly 75% of them favor the Republican [15:42] party. I mean, they are more socially [15:44] conservative and politically [15:46] conservative. There are other groups of [15:48] Jews who also skew politically [15:51] conservative. Um, Jews from the former [15:54] Soviet Union, right? I I never totally [15:56] understood why all my friends that came [15:58] over from Bellarus and other places and [16:01] I have several f several friends in this [16:03] camp why they were all so politically [16:05] conservative. I I understand it now [16:08] having worked in this area for a long [16:09] time at this point, but I never but I [16:11] but I you know also Jews from um you [16:14] know Middle Eastern countries, the [16:15] Misrai Jews, Sphartic Jews, Misrai Jews, [16:18] they tend to also be politically [16:20] conservative and there are also just a [16:21] lot of Jews you know generally not a lot [16:23] but a fair you know a number um who are [16:26] just you know polit who are just [16:27] politically speaking they are [16:29] conservative as well but the predominant [16:31] number roughly 75% of American Jews do [16:35] are politically liberal and in addition [16:38] to that um roughly 70% [16:43] of American Jews would could should be [16:47] classified as what I call religiously [16:50] liberal. I use the term religiously [16:52] liberal [16:53] >> in my book. I use that to refer to Jews [16:56] who do not identify as orthodox. So [16:59] religiously liberal doesn't mean you're [17:02] not observant. Okay? It doesn't mean [17:04] you're not a practicing Jew. Um, you [17:06] could or could not be. It's a wide range [17:08] of Jews, but basically it it really is [17:11] is a term that applies to to uh Jews who [17:15] do not self-identify as an Orthodox Jew. [17:19] So that's religiously liberal. Okay. So [17:22] in terms of religiously liberal Jews, [17:25] that's the majority um of American Jews. [17:27] Okay. The majority of American Jews are [17:29] are not Orthodox. And so back to that [17:32] political religious stew that we talked [17:36] about earlier, that's an it's that's an [17:39] important that's an important concept [17:42] for this book because what I really [17:44] establish is that the way um many if not [17:48] most American Jews think about um their [17:52] politics is very much influenced by what [17:55] their religious [17:57] um tendency is and proclivity is. and [18:01] and and it's it's also reinforcing the [18:04] other way. Their religious proclivities [18:07] um meaning whether they're uh [18:09] religiously liberal or orthodox often is [18:12] very much influenced um by their [18:15] political um beliefs. Now, it's not it's [18:19] not a 100% lineup as as I also show in [18:22] the book. There's there's um you know [18:24] push back in both the uh politically [18:28] liberal and the politically conservative [18:31] sectors. There's increasing political [18:33] homelessness that is emerging. But for [18:36] the most part, there is a lineup between [18:39] Jews who are politically liberal and [18:42] religiously liberal. And conversely, [18:45] there's a lineup between um religiously [18:48] conser uh orthodox and politically um [18:53] conservative uh individuals and that [18:55] lineup is very very prominent. [18:58] >> And then in what areas do you see the [19:00] most polarization happening in Bobby? [19:03] Okay. So, we can talk about um political [19:07] polarization. Um the book talks about [19:09] several areas where that is dominant and [19:11] we can talk about religious [19:12] polarization. Um and then of course we [19:14] can talk about Israel which I know we'll [19:16] be talking about. [19:16] >> Yes, we'll be getting to Yes. So, first [19:18] start out with the politics of it. Yeah. [19:20] >> So, the politics I I thought that was [19:22] really interesting, you know, going back [19:24] for a moment to Jonathan Height's three [19:25] ethics of moralities. The first one is [19:28] autonomy, right? And so for um [19:31] religiously liberal Jews, most of whom [19:34] are politically liberal, autonomy is [19:37] really important. I mean, think about [19:39] it. The majority of those Jews are not [19:42] strict followers of Jewish law known as [19:44] halaka, right? They're not living their [19:46] lives according to inside the halaka [19:49] system. They are governed largely by [19:51] that ethic of autonomy. So think about [19:54] how that perception is going to track. [19:57] Let's just take the abortion which is [19:59] you know a very hot button issue [20:01] especially since the um jobs opinion. So [20:05] the majority of um religiously liberal [20:08] Jews who are also politically liberal [20:10] will say, you know, it's it it's a [20:13] right. Abortion is a Jewish value, [20:16] right? And you and I and I talk about [20:17] that that very line in the book, [20:19] abortion is a Jewish value. But when you [20:23] get to um when you get to the Jews who [20:28] are hahically observant, meaning they [20:30] are orthodox Jews, they understand what [20:33] the halaka is with respect to orthodox. [20:36] They would not necessarily say that [20:39] abortion is a Jewish value. their [20:42] understanding of the halaka regarding [20:46] abortion which is very complicated. [20:48] Okay, it's not a it's not a simple area [20:51] at all is very very nuanced. It's not [20:54] the same as the Christian perception of [20:56] life begins at conception. That's not [20:58] what Jewish law says. But by the same [21:00] token, it's also not this is a right [21:02] that you have. It's because it's your [21:04] body. And so that's one example of where [21:08] the the um the political issue, right, [21:12] is very much um uh the the positions on [21:16] the political issue of abortion is very [21:18] much emblematic and influenced by what [21:20] the religious sensibilities are of the [21:23] individuals that that maintain those [21:26] beliefs. Uh religious liberty issues is [21:28] another one where we really see that [21:30] surfacing. And also I I'm going to say [21:33] LGBTQ issues as well. Um you know the [21:37] issue of civil civil gay marriage right [21:41] that that is one that I would say by [21:45] this point even many Orthodox Jews um [21:48] are accepting of that. I note in my book [21:50] that the um Orthodox [clears throat] [21:51] Union, one of two major Orthodox [21:54] rabbitic organizations, actually [21:57] embraced the Respect for Marriage Act, [21:59] which was codified in the wake of DOS [22:02] out of [clears throat] concern that the [22:04] gay marriage case um Oberfeld would be [22:08] reversed and the OU joined that, you [22:11] know, which I thought was very very [22:12] interesting. The other rebbitic orthodox [22:14] organization, Audith Israel, did not [22:16] join that. they're they're a little bit [22:18] more to the right on that issue, but the [22:20] U did join that. And I thought that that [22:22] was very interesting. That was something [22:23] I learned as I was researching this [22:25] book. But again, these are the kinds of [22:27] issues where you see that stew that as [22:31] it's being cooked, right? And yes, [22:33] seasoned. [22:34] >> Seasoned indeed. And it's boiling over. [22:37] Um and then so those are some of the [22:39] political issues. And then religious [22:41] issues are are similar I would imagine [22:44] and um to what you've just described but [22:47] then there's also other religious issues [22:49] that come into play which you've [22:50] highlighted in the book. Yeah, I I [22:53] devoted actually um as you know I [22:56] devoted after I go through the the [22:58] political religious um stew u chapters [23:02] in which I look at at at uh liberal um [23:06] politically liberal Jews and then [23:08] politically conservative Jews and I and [23:10] I really explore the the issues we that [23:12] we were just talking about. Um, then I [23:15] really have a a chapter that looks at [23:17] just religious divides. And and when I [23:20] want to define religious divides, what I [23:21] mean by that are divides among Jews that [23:25] really are centered on religious issues [23:28] >> having nothing to do with secular [23:31] society. All right. And so this is in [23:33] some ways this is a historical chapter [23:36] um because I look at the 20th century [23:38] into the 21st century. Um, Jonathan [23:40] Sarna for the the renowned uh American [23:44] Jewish historian um was really helpful [23:46] um to me in giving me sources and [23:48] talking me through certain things and [23:50] and and I look at you know some issues [23:52] that you know may not be on the radar [23:54] screen for example of most Jews today [23:57] like um Auna you know the situation of [23:59] the appropriate means to give a whereby [24:02] a husband has to divorce um his wife um [24:06] mixeding you know at this point that's [24:08] not a hot issue. Everybody is settled [24:12] out into where they are given the type [24:14] of synagogue. But at one point that was [24:15] very contentious as I talk about in the [24:17] book. Um driving to synagogue on Shabbat [24:20] when the conservative movement allowed [24:22] that. That was a huge huge uh turn. So I [24:26] I talk about some of these um religious [24:28] issues, but I think what we've been [24:30] seeing since the um last three decades [24:32] of the 20th century is really uh [24:36] religious issues that are f created and [24:40] fueled by changing norms in secular [24:43] society. And so what I mean specifically [24:46] by this is once we started the country [24:49] started talking about the issue of gay [24:51] rights and specifically gay marriage [24:54] that was one that began to really um [24:56] become discussed a lot in Jewish [24:59] circles. And you know should we uh you [25:02] know first the reform movement then the [25:04] conservative movement shortly thereafter [25:06] actually looked at you know can we um uh [25:09] can we perform a marriage of two women [25:11] or two men? Can we ordain uh someone who [25:15] is openly gay? Um and then there are a [25:18] whole bunch of other issues um that are [25:21] that again those would not necessarily [25:24] apply to orthodox communities but that [25:26] could nonetheless um be applicable in an [25:29] orthodox community like to what degree [25:31] should we be welcoming of openly gay [25:33] people you know should we give them [25:35] honors in the synagogue you know there's [25:36] a whole so this was driven really by the [25:39] changing social norms because American [25:41] society you know by the time the Supreme [25:43] Court decided the Oberfell opinion which [25:46] was 2015. You know, most people in the [25:49] United States, most had already come to [25:52] accept the idea of civil, okay, civil [25:55] same-sex marriage. I mean, it wasn't [25:57] everybody, but a large percentage of [25:59] Americans by that point, you know, [26:01] basically were um accepting that. And so [26:04] again that forced um the liberally [26:07] religious movements meaning reform [26:09] conservative reconstructing Judaism to [26:11] to grapple with whether how they should [26:14] be responding uh not with respect to [26:16] civil marriage but with respect to [26:17] Jewish marriage [26:19] >> apart from the issues. This is a bit of [26:21] an aside, but something that I've been [26:24] thinking about for a while, Bobby, and [26:26] that's people have become so entrenched [26:29] in labels. [26:31] >> Labels of and and I bring this up [26:33] because I belong, as as you know, I [26:35] belong to Park Synagogue. It's modern [26:37] Orthodox. I also have membership at [26:39] Lincoln Square, Modern Orthodox. And [26:42] people say, "Well, what are those [26:43] synagogues?" I say, "Well, they're [26:44] modern Orthodox." Oh, so you're [26:45] Orthodox, right? And my response to them [26:49] is, I'm a practicing Jew. You can call [26:51] me whatever you want, but I'm a [26:53] practicing Jew. I don't know if I'm [26:55] considered orthodox, conservative, [26:57] traditional, whatever you want to call [26:59] it, but I know what I do and I know what [27:00] I am. So why do we get so caught up in [27:04] labels? And I'd like to invoke the [27:05] labature rebby who said labels are for [27:07] clothes. So is there a way of moving [27:10] beyond labels here when actually most [27:14] people and I might have shared this with [27:16] you before in a previous conversation [27:18] but I find that most people for example [27:20] will say well I'm a reformed Jew or I'm [27:22] reform and I say well you're not really [27:24] reformed you're just not practicing. So [27:27] I find that people are just so [27:29] entrenched with these labels and I'm [27:30] wondering if you can sort of talk to [27:32] that. You know, as you were asking this [27:35] question, I actually had this thought [27:37] that um and again, I'm not a [27:39] psychologist, as you know, right? [27:41] >> But you play one on television. [27:43] [laughter] [27:43] >> There you go. Um and I'm really and I'm [27:46] not a sports person, but I think there's [27:50] something um you know, and I and I think [27:54] this actually now that I'm thinking [27:55] about it, I think Jonathan Height might [27:56] have said something along these lines in [27:57] his book, The Righteous Mind, but it [27:59] just popped back into my head now as you [28:01] asked the question. I think people like [28:03] to feel like they have a team, like that [28:05] they're together. I think that's the [28:08] answer to your question. I think people [28:10] like to have this just occurred to me [28:12] but I think people like to have this [28:13] sense of belonging [28:15] and and the and that's good in many ways [28:18] but the problem is when it comes to [28:21] certain kinds of situations that sense [28:24] of belonging often facilitates a black [28:28] and white mentality [28:30] as opposed to the ability to be [28:32] comfortable in the gray. [28:35] >> And I get that. I get why being black [28:37] and white is more comforting. You're [28:40] with your team. You know, these are your [28:42] people. And I think it's harder to be in [28:45] the gray. I've sort of always been a [28:46] gray person, right? [28:48] >> Yeah, I am too, Bobby. And that's that's [28:49] why I I just I have such difficulty [28:52] understanding this because for me, the [28:54] team is the Jewish people. [28:57] >> Yes. Yes. Yes. And I Yes. And I I [29:01] totally I I you know, I agree that's the [29:04] whole point. But I like but I like your [29:05] analogy of the team that people want to [29:07] feel a sense of belonging. [29:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. [29:09] >> I mean at the end of the day that's what [29:11] a synagogue does. No matter if it's [29:13] reformed, conservative, modern, [29:15] orthodox, or whatever it is, [29:17] >> that's what a synagogue does. It's about [29:18] bringing people together to create a [29:20] sense of community. [29:21] >> Absolutely. [29:22] >> As long as they're going, you know, I [29:23] mean, that's the important thing that [29:25] they embrace. Really, at its core, there [29:28] was something in the book that really [29:30] came out. It was a thread throughout the [29:32] book and that's this whole notion really [29:35] of building a stronger Jewish center. [29:39] >> That's really at the core of the book. [29:41] And I want to read something that you [29:43] had later on in the book and then we're [29:44] going to move on, but I want you to [29:46] respond to it. You wrote here, quote, [29:48] it's on page 163 for anyone with the [29:50] book. I believe, he wrote, quote, I [29:52] believe most Americans, including Jews, [29:54] are exhausted by the polarized discourse [29:57] that poisons so many of our spaces. [30:00] Remedying this status quo requires that [30:02] we grow and empower the center by [30:04] building a consensus around key big [30:07] picture issues while leaving enough [30:09] breathing room in this center for [30:11] reason, debate around significant points [30:13] of disagreement. And we're going to be [30:15] talking about what those areas of [30:17] consensus are later in our conversation [30:19] when we talk about really what should we [30:21] do and what really are the next steps. [30:23] But I wanted to bring that up at this [30:25] point because you you've ticked off and [30:27] you've highlighted a few of the areas of [30:29] polarization in politics, in religion, [30:32] some religious issues, but really in [30:35] many cases they are really boiling over [30:37] within the Jewish community. And [30:39] certainly one area is when it comes to [30:42] Israel and when it comes to Zionism. [30:45] >> And you have a whole section on Zionism, [30:47] which I thought was absolutely [30:49] fascinating. And I'm wondering first if [30:52] you can really just address for us, [30:54] Bobby, why and how has the word been so [30:57] hijacked and so misunderstood? If you [31:00] can give us sort of the lay of the land [31:02] on that one. [31:03] >> Yeah, that will the the why it's been [31:05] misunderstood. And I think the the [31:08] misunderstanding has has even grown [31:11] exponentially [31:13] um since I turned my manuscript in which [31:16] was only in I want to say end of April, [31:19] right? It hasn't been that long, but I [31:22] >> we're recording this. We should share it [31:23] what August uh 27th. It's going to go up [31:26] next week. So really this is really hot [31:28] off the presses. [31:29] >> Right. Exactly. and and and and what [31:33] what surfaced, the very last thing that [31:35] pertains to this topic that I was able [31:37] to to just get in uh to the to the to [31:41] the final book um was a JFNA survey, [31:45] Jewish Federation North America survey, [31:47] which basically showed that um uh only [31:51] maybe a third um as I recall of American [31:54] Jews would consider themselves Zionists, [31:56] but they but a much higher percentage uh [31:59] still really care, you know, about [32:02] Israel. And and what the interpretive um [32:06] the interpretation of that data by the [32:08] analysts was that well that word Zionism [32:11] is like a loaded a Zionist has become [32:13] very loaded. So people want to avoid [32:15] that. It doesn't mean that their [32:16] feelings are any different. But because [32:18] that label has become now so um aligned [32:22] with negativity, which really is the the [32:25] reality, people are afraid to to use it. [32:28] people are afraid to identify in in that [32:30] way. Um which is really unfortunate. Now [32:32] this has been going on for you know this [32:35] is not a recent phenomenon. Um and there [32:37] were things that were driving [32:40] um uh the the the factors that produced [32:45] you know this type of outcome uh going [32:48] on I would say you know for at least a [32:50] decade if not more prior to that time. [32:53] But it felt like when that survey came [32:56] out and it was like, "Wow, you know, [32:58] people don't even want to use the term [32:59] Zionist, though they still believe that [33:01] Israel should be a Jewish democratic [33:02] state." They still believe, they still [33:04] care about Israel, but no, no, we're not [33:05] going to say we're Zionists. That was [33:07] sort of, I think, a watershed moment. [33:09] So, I was able to get that in. But so [33:11] much more has come out related to that [33:13] topic even um you know, since that uh [33:16] those results were released. So, yeah, I [33:19] think I think that's I think that's [33:20] that's problematic, right? Because words [33:23] have meaning, right? [33:25] >> Absolutely. And I have spoken to a fair [33:27] amount of people and when I say either [33:30] I'm a Zionist or I challenge them on [33:34] what they think Zionism means and I hear [33:36] their responses, they're absolutely [33:38] ludicrous. I mean, they are so [33:39] incredibly off the mark. So clearly [33:42] something went wrong in haywire in [33:44] society and in the media and in [33:46] entertainment and academia, which you're [33:49] very close to, of course. uh just so [33:51] many uh circuits broken to create just [33:55] this vitrial against the word Zionism. [33:58] Indeed. Now you have four types of [34:00] Zionists that you feature up in the book [34:03] and just I just want to tick off each [34:05] one of them. I just thought that they [34:06] were really interesting. So the first [34:07] one and by the way it was sort of like [34:09] the four sons that we read about at the [34:11] Passover seder when I read that that [34:13] Bobby's got four types of Zionists here [34:15] was like the four sons. The first one is [34:17] the right-winger Zionists. And there are [34:20] some very high-profile individuals that [34:22] fall into that category. But what would [34:24] you like to share with us about that [34:26] grouping, the right-winger Zionists? [34:28] >> Yeah, I I would say the right-winger [34:30] Zionist. And again, I the one thing I do [34:32] want to highlight is these four [34:33] categories are an attempt to provide um [34:36] just a spectrum, [34:37] >> like a framework really framework. [34:39] Exactly. [34:39] >> And they're not they're not written in [34:40] stone. [34:41] >> They're not written in stone. And and [34:42] one of the things that I really [34:43] highlight before I go through these four [34:45] categories is really the porousness um [34:48] of these categories, you know, people [34:49] and and the porousness of any one [34:51] individual who can sort of, you know, [34:53] blend from, you know, one to the other [34:55] depending on the issue, depending on the [34:57] day, depending on the moment, the news [34:58] cycle maybe. So these are not four rigid [35:01] categories. But you know, and when I and [35:03] again when I talk about the center, I [35:05] want to just come I want to just loop [35:07] ahead for a moment to situate these four [35:09] categories. When I when I talk about [35:11] building a center, my hope my goal would [35:13] be to get as many people, you know, from [35:16] at least three of these four categories [35:18] into that center group as possible. All [35:21] right. So, um that that that would be [35:24] the goal. So, the the but but but as I [35:27] also say in the book, people um at the [35:29] extremes [35:31] um are going to have no interest in any [35:33] sort of a centrist enterprise. And there [35:35] are people on both sides of the extreme. [35:37] All right. So the right-wingers that [35:39] that is one of the I'm not saying every [35:41] person who would fall into that category [35:44] would not also be a participant in the [35:46] enterprise for which I am calling. I am [35:49] not saying that. But the right-wingers, [35:50] you know, tend to be um those who um and [35:54] again we're talking about American Jews, [35:56] okay? So I'm not focused on the [35:57] right-wingers of Israel. This is the [35:58] this is clearly [35:59] >> the American Jewish community. [36:01] >> The American Jewish community, but these [36:02] are, you know, I I highlight the Zionist [36:05] Organization of America. Um Ben Shapiro [36:08] was one person who I noted, although Ben [36:10] Shapiro did have some very respectful [36:12] debates with with people who who feel [36:14] differently um than he does. You know, [36:17] typically um they are defenders of [36:19] Netanyahu. They're defenders of um the [36:22] right the right end establishment in [36:25] Israel. They are pro-settlement um and [36:29] strong pro-settlement. Um and so that [36:32] that's that's how I define that [36:34] right-winger. think it's a very small [36:36] percentage of American Jews who fit into [36:38] that category because most of them a uh [36:42] most of them tend to be not all um [36:44] religiously conservative, not all, [36:46] however um and or politically [36:48] conservative. That's a very small [36:50] percentage of American Jews as we've [36:52] just discussed. So it's not a large [36:54] percentage. [36:55] >> Right. And then the second uh grouping [36:57] that you have is identity Zionists [37:00] across a spectrum. Identity Zionists [37:03] across a spectrum. What should we think [37:05] about that? [37:06] >> Yeah. So, the identity Zionist across [37:08] the spectrum and I I am grateful to Gil [37:10] Troy who actually I borrowed that with [37:11] his permission of course [37:13] >> whom we've had here on the program. [37:14] >> Oh, great. Great. Yeah. Gil was great. [37:17] >> Hi, Gil if you're listening. And I had [37:18] him on my regular the oneway ticket [37:20] show. [37:21] >> He's a real scholar. Just an amazing [37:24] amazing scholar. [37:25] >> Yes. And yes, and he was very very very [37:27] generous um with his time. Um so I I [37:30] borrowed his term [37:31] >> identity Zionist. This is a range, you [37:34] know, and so um you know, at the what I [37:36] would call the right end of this range [37:38] and you know would be people like um [37:40] Brett Stevens, um Rabbi Walpy, um Barry [37:44] [clears throat] Weiss, you know, people [37:46] who are staunch staunch Zionist, but [37:49] they're not necessarily uncritical. Ammy [37:51] Hirsh, Rabbi Ammy Hirs would be in this [37:53] category as well. Another, you know, [37:55] incredibly um helpful person during my [37:58] writing process. Um, these are people [37:59] that really um, you know, love Israel. [38:02] And so, yes, they can be critical, but [38:04] they criticize out of love. You know, [38:06] it's like they want Israel to be better. [38:08] And so, it's all coming from a place of [38:10] love. So, that's that's one end of the [38:12] spectrum. And, you know, I think it's a [38:14] broad spectrum. So, you know, you you [38:16] can have people who are far more [38:18] centrist when it comes to Israel than [38:20] the ones I just mentioned. And you can [38:21] have people even on the left who may [38:23] veer into the soft anti-sionist or the [38:26] non-zionist which is the third category. [38:29] It's a large large spectrum. But I think [38:32] it's united like as I think about it I [38:34] think it's united by people who want to [38:36] see Israel continue to be a Jewish [38:40] democratic state. [38:42] There was a quote that you had in that [38:44] section by Rabbi Angela Buckell of [38:48] Central Synagogue here in New York and I [38:50] want to read it and then maybe have you [38:52] respond to it, but I thought it was so [38:53] powerful and I especially wanted to [38:56] share it with our wonderful uh [38:57] Israelcast community. And she wrote [38:59] here, quote, it was her 2023 Russia [39:02] Shana sermon given right before the [39:04] kamas massacre during the time Israelis [39:06] were protesting weekly against the [39:08] proposed judicial reforms which you talk [39:10] about actually in the book. who was [39:12] critical of Israel which was critical of [39:14] Israel's government but her climactic [39:16] ending was overflowing with the themes [39:18] of love and peoplehood and you quoted [39:20] her here by saying quote from again by [39:23] Rabbi Buckdall if Israel were no longer [39:25] to exist how would you feel I want you [39:28] for a moment to imagine it a world [39:30] without a Jewish homeland really see how [39:34] that sits in your heart and soul it [39:36] should feel unthinkable and compel us to [39:38] act and then she went on to say this [39:40] young messy The miraculous Jewish state [39:43] is the most important sovereign [39:45] democratic project of the Jewish people [39:48] of the last 2,000 years. We cannot walk [39:51] away. [39:53] >> Yes. [39:53] >> And I just want to commit that one, [39:55] Bobby, to memory because that really [39:57] encapsulates so much that yes, it's [40:00] messy. Yes, it's a new state. Two Jews, [40:03] three opinions. Two Israelis, five [40:05] opinions. But at the end of the day, we [40:07] cannot walk away from this. [40:08] >> Yes. Absolutely. I I totally agree. when [40:11] I when I heard that it it just captured [40:13] me so much and um you know whenever I [40:18] talk about somebody particularly in a [40:20] chapter like this where I'm situating [40:22] them in a category um and I don't know [40:24] them personally so I did not know Rabbi [40:27] Buckdall personally you know when I [40:29] during my first draft of that chapter [40:31] but I do know uh one of her rabbis Sarah [40:34] Burman and uh Sarah happened to be in [40:36] town for the CC that's a reform rabbitic [40:39] convention so we had drinks together and [40:41] I said, I really need to share this [40:43] draft with with Rabbi Bdal, you know, [40:45] can you tell her, you know, this this [40:47] was shortly before Pesak a couple years [40:49] ago. So, Rabbi uh Burman did and Rabbi [40:53] Bdal, it was very interesting. She she [40:56] definitely had some suggestions for me [40:57] on this chapter and she had some [40:59] concerns and she she emailed me. It was [41:02] like three days before Pesak and she [41:04] said, "Do you have time to talk?" And I [41:06] was like, "Oh my gosh." Well, if you [41:07] have time to talk three days before pay, [41:08] of course my brisket can wait and I will [41:12] definitely be at your beck and call. And [41:13] she was so generous and she shared her [41:15] concerns um you know because again she [41:18] she is definitely an identity Zionist. [41:20] That language that you just read is [41:21] beautiful but she's also critical um of [41:23] the state of Israel and I think she was [41:25] really helpful for me. This was an [41:26] earlier draft of that chapter. She was [41:28] really helpful for me in really [41:30] understanding the nuance of people in in [41:33] that as a po and and and also a a point [41:37] that I I had not considered prior to [41:39] that conversation with her which was so [41:41] valuable was that the people in the [41:42] rightwing group are really not going to [41:45] criticize Israel tend not to criticize [41:47] Israel as long as with the current [41:48] administration in power that is [41:50] different from the identity Zionists who [41:52] are definitely going to be critical of [41:54] of Israel [41:55] >> of Israel right and I'm going to get to [41:56] that topic in just a So the third [42:00] Zionist grouping, if you will, called [42:02] neutral non-zionist/soft [42:05] anti-zionist. [42:06] >> Yeah. So the non-zionists, I think of [42:10] this group as as basically people for [42:12] whom Israel basically plays no role in [42:16] their lives and they're indifferent to [42:18] it or if it doesn't matter to them one [42:20] way or the other. Okay. So, [42:22] interestingly enough, I have a very [42:24] close friend. I've known her my entire [42:26] life. She's never been to Israel. We [42:29] talk. She lives in New York as do you. [42:31] But we talk, you know, a few times a [42:33] year, but we we've known each other our [42:35] whole lives. We were very close. We've [42:37] never talked about Israel. So, over the [42:39] past couple years, I actually said, I [42:40] have to ask you a question. And I think [42:42] I said, um, are are you a Zionist? How [42:44] do you, you know, I did ask her that [42:45] question and she thought about it and [42:47] she said, well, I want Israel to be [42:49] there for the people who wanted to be [42:51] there. And I thought that was an [42:52] interesting answer. what she was [42:54] basically saying, she's not I would not [42:55] call her a non-Zionist. Israel doesn't [42:57] play a role in her life. Judaism does, [42:59] but Israel doesn't, but she still is [43:01] happy that Israel is there for people [43:04] who want Israel to be there. So, I don't [43:06] know. Again, that's why I'm saying these [43:08] categories, they're not perfect. They [43:10] can't capture perfection because we're [43:13] also gray. There's so much gray in the [43:14] world, not black and white, [43:16] >> right? And then the final category, [43:18] committed anti-sionists. [43:20] >> Right? So, the commit the soft [43:21] anti-ionists. I I think of as people [43:24] primarily younger, you know, who are in [43:26] that, you know, negative Israel phase [43:28] who may not end up there. They may still [43:31] go in the other direction. You know, we [43:33] we just don't know yet. But they're not [43:35] that committed, firm, you know, [43:37] entrenched anti-Zionist [43:40] uh of that anti-ionist mindset that I [43:43] talk about in that last section. And so [43:45] these organizationally speaking, I'm [43:47] talking about uh JBP, Jewish Voices for [43:50] Peace. if not now. I'm talking about [43:52] people who, you know, really do not [43:54] believe that Israel has the right to [43:55] exist or should exist as a Jewish [43:57] democratic state. Bational people who [43:59] favor by a bational state. Th this is [44:02] the group that I that I really uh key in [44:04] on in that last section. [44:06] >> Yeah. And that's why I wanted to focus [44:08] on Zionism for a moment as we did [44:12] because that's really a polarizing issue [44:14] among the Jewish community when it comes [44:16] to people that are critical of Israel. [44:20] I'm just wondering if you can also talk [44:22] about that because um there are people [44:25] the Monty Freriedman's of the world whom [44:27] we love who's been here on the show, [44:28] Brett Stevens and so on who are [44:30] committed Zionists as you pointed out, [44:32] but they will be critical of Israel. [44:34] However, I I find that there are people [44:37] that want to be critical of Israel but [44:40] can't be critical of Israel because it's [44:42] going to be misinterpreted [44:43] by the wrong people. their comments are [44:46] going to be hijacked uh when they are [44:48] critical of Israel. And I'm just [44:50] wondering if you can talk a little bit [44:51] about that too, Bobby. [44:53] >> Yeah, I mean that's interesting. Um I I [44:56] think I think it largely perhaps depends [45:00] on where one is religiously, you know, [45:04] where what stream what stream you're in [45:07] religiously. Okay. So for example, the [45:09] idea that we cannot criticize Israel, [45:12] that very concept that we cannot [45:14] criticize Israel, that [45:17] that was like a foreign news flash for [45:20] me. Okay? And why is that? Because I [45:23] have always been affiliated with a very [45:25] traditional but yet you know uh [45:28] conservative/mortei [45:30] type synagogue. Okay? Very traditional [45:32] conservative. I mean religiously [45:34] conservative, not politically [45:35] conservative necessarily, synagogue [45:37] where the rabbis have always always [45:40] loved Israel and said, you know, it's [45:43] okay to criticize. So the idea that we [45:44] can't criticize Israel, that was sort of [45:46] a that was a revelation to me that that [45:48] that that is something that is [45:50] verbotten. Um and and but and I now I [45:53] understand it's because the the [45:56] religious community that that I've [45:58] always been a part of always accepted [46:00] criticism out of love for purposes of [46:03] making Israel better. But I do think [46:05] that there are people and I have heard [46:07] from friends of mine that are in um you [46:11] know some Orthodox communities where [46:13] criticism of Israel is not necessarily [46:16] something that you would be comfortable [46:18] um saying or doing. And I think it [46:20] depends on the nature of it. But I have [46:23] heard from from some of my friends who [46:25] who do pray in um a centrist or beyond [46:29] orthodox community that criticism of [46:31] Israel is not something that would be uh [46:33] particularly popular in those quarters. [46:35] >> Yeah. I I I think just beyond um [46:38] synagogues is if someone that absolutely [46:42] loves Israel, is a committed Zionist and [46:44] so on says anything negative about [46:47] Israel in the public square, you're [46:49] going to have people that are [46:50] anti-Israel lop onto that and say, "See, [46:53] they're Jewish and look, they also [46:56] disagree with Israel and look how bad [46:58] Israel is then." [46:59] >> Right? [46:59] >> So, I think that's the care that one has [47:01] to has to uh take. So that I think that [47:05] is a little bit more of a phenomenon [47:07] that we have seen escalating since [47:10] October 7th. Not that it perhaps didn't [47:12] exist before in certain communities, but [47:14] here's a perfect example of that. And I [47:16] this is actually in the book. So in [47:18] February of 2024 um my rabbi who was [47:22] president of the Chicago Rabbitical [47:23] Association at that time uh let me do a [47:26] focus group of the Chicago Ribbonical uh [47:29] rabbis organization. [47:31] Every one of which were religiously [47:33] liberal because the Orthodox rabbis have [47:35] their own rabbitic organization. So [47:37] everybody in that room was either [47:39] conservative reform or or something of [47:42] that sort. and and um when I when I [47:47] tested out my um my consensus platform [47:50] which I had already developed by that [47:52] point again February 2024 and I came to [47:54] criticism of Israel is appropriate this [47:56] was interesting I actually got push back [47:58] on that and the rabbis many of them it [48:00] wasn't just one or two said no no I [48:02] don't think we're comfortable [48:03] criticizing Israel right now um you know [48:06] it was February 2024 the war was in play [48:09] we can't really do anything to [48:10] jeopardize Israel's welfare wasn't so [48:13] much what you're saying about other [48:15] people will lob on to that. Remember the [48:17] political situation then though it [48:19] wasn't great is not what it is today [48:22] where you have a lot of very anti-Israel [48:26] people [48:27] climbing the ranks of public office and [48:30] visibility and politics was a little bit [48:33] different then but basically their sense [48:35] was no right now we can't be critical of [48:37] Israel and I think that uh what you're [48:40] articulating I do see how we um that [48:45] that that that people could be reluctant [48:47] to do that. On the other hand, if there [48:50] are things that people can legitimately [48:52] criticize about Israel, you might say, [48:54] one might say that being able to [48:56] criticize or call out things that that [48:59] might be happening in Israel that could [49:01] be appropriately called out can give um [49:05] a pro-Israel stance more credibility. [49:07] It's not like you're saying everything [49:09] is fine. you're being realistic about [49:11] something you love and you want to point [49:13] out criticisms for the sake of making it [49:16] better. So I think that that can [49:18] actually be can go the other way as [49:20] well. [49:20] >> Interesting. Now, just also as an aside [49:22] and bit of a random question, when you [49:24] finished the book, did that section on [49:27] Zionism end up differently than you [49:29] envisioned when you started the book on [49:31] October 7th? [49:34] >> I don't think so. I think, you know, [49:36] again, it as I said, that was the [49:38] hardest chapter to write because I had [49:40] to I felt I had to be as clear as [49:44] possible about delineating the [49:45] differences while at the same time [49:48] showing tremendous fluidity within the [49:51] categories and that's what made it [49:52] difficult. But I don't think it really [49:54] ended up I don't think it really ended [49:57] up um differently from what it otherwise [49:59] would have. [50:00] >> Okay. Well, listen, two more big buckets [50:02] on the book, but before we get to them, [50:04] you taught a course in February of 2025 [50:07] at Reichman University. I want I want [50:09] you to share what that course was all [50:11] about and the key thread that your [50:14] students taught you uh during that [50:17] course visa v American politics in [50:19] Israel. [50:20] >> Yeah. The course was called um how law, [50:23] politics, and religion influence the way [50:26] Americans think about Israel. And this [50:29] came about um because my family, my [50:32] Israeli family, I use family in air [50:34] quotes because he's technically not my [50:35] family, but I think of him that way, is [50:37] the dean. [50:38] >> We're all one big family, Bobby. [50:39] >> We're all one big family, right? [50:40] Exactly. How true. Um and and he is the [50:43] dean. And he wanted me to help him find [50:46] an American law professor who could [50:47] create a special course for these [50:49] reservists who, as you know, had been [50:51] missing so much of their studies um due [50:54] to their ongoing service and they needed [50:56] something just for them. And I said, [50:58] "No, I won't help you find someone [50:59] because I want to do this." And he [51:01] didn't expect me to say that. I said, [51:02] "Okay, great." So I can create and I I [51:04] knew I was going to base it on the book [51:05] or on sections of the book. So I had 25 [51:08] reservists. Um I taught them on Zoom. I [51:10] was here in the States. They were they [51:12] were in Israel. Um and um you know, [51:15] Israeli students um generally speaking, [51:17] I've taught at Reichman a few times in [51:19] person and I learned that they don't [51:21] typically they don't always read, number [51:23] one, but that's not different from my [51:25] students either. at least not as [51:27] carefully. Um, but they also don't like [51:30] to speak and they say it's because of [51:32] their English, but honestly their [51:33] English is a whole lot better than my [51:35] Hebrew. Their English is just fine, but [51:37] I think they just, you know, don't like [51:39] to speak. So, you have to kind of pull [51:41] pull it out of them. But even on Zoom, [51:43] it was a great experience. I think what [51:45] I really learned from them was just the [51:47] passion that they feel for their [51:49] country. And again, it's not like [51:51] they're not critical of their country. [51:52] They're giving their potentially laying [51:54] their lives on the line for their [51:56] country. They witnessed firsthand the [51:58] devastation. They all had people who [52:01] were, you know, catastrophically injured [52:03] and died. I had class the day of the [52:05] Bibbis family funeral. It was 4:00 in [52:08] their time when we met. And you can [52:10] imagine what it was like to have to try [52:11] to teach a class. You know, in Israel, [52:13] those funerals are basically there's [52:15] ceremonies all around the country, you [52:17] know, in morning. It was such a hard [52:19] day. But I think you know what what [52:22] shocked them the most was this synergy [52:25] between the religion and politics right [52:27] and they also don't understand you know [52:30] how American Jews deal with religion [52:32] because in Israel the way Judaism is [52:35] dealt with is very different you know [52:36] most of my students are not necessarily [52:39] religious when I taught there other [52:42] years I think I saw maybe a total of [52:44] three uh men wearing kipot that's it [52:48] it's not a rel it's not bilan it's not a [52:50] religious institution. Most of the [52:52] students are secular, but they're still [52:53] Jewish in a very core fundamental way. [52:56] So, they don't understand what secular [52:57] means in the United States. They don't [52:59] understand that that uh political [53:03] liberally politically liberal uh [53:05] religiously liberal combination because [53:08] that doesn't that's a very different [53:10] dynamic in Israel. So, they found that [53:12] really interesting. Um they all I I in [53:16] their exam I asked them to write a [53:17] letter to their American friends and [53:19] what would they say and I actually [53:20] quoted one of uh the papers that I [53:23] received in the epilogue and you know [53:25] basically you know they they they want [53:27] to communicate they want to be they want [53:29] Americans to understand what being [53:31] Israeli is and what that means and why [53:34] it's important. And it was an amazing it [53:37] was probably one of the the top two or [53:40] three highlights of my entire career. It [53:42] was an amazing experience. [53:43] >> Yeah. And as you point out how and they [53:46] shared with you how American politics [53:48] influence the perception of American [53:51] Jews or influence the American Jewish [53:54] perception about Israel. So it's all [53:56] stemming from politics, isn't it? [53:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. And it is. [54:00] >> And not only American Jews, but I think [54:02] the American population in general, not [54:04] only Jews. [54:05] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. More and more [54:07] increasing. Increasing even in the four [54:10] years. Indeed. Um, [54:13] >> you have also a section a blueprint for [54:16] strengthening the American Jewish [54:17] community. Um, it's a it's very much of [54:20] a self-help all about it. And also I [54:23] want to read a quote here. Um, and again [54:26] for the benefit of our wonderful [54:27] audience that has the book and if not [54:30] get the book and turn to page 160 [54:32] because you you wrote when it comes to [54:35] um American self-help first self-help is [54:38] the best way to empower Jews. Second, in [54:41] actualizing this self-help, we can also [54:43] offer a vital example of critical [54:45] independent thinking an element in short [54:48] supply at this point. And third, now is [54:51] the time. So, you're really making a [54:54] call to action here for all of us to [54:55] really get on board with self-help and [54:58] really create this center and unify each [55:00] other. We can have all of our different [55:02] uh belief systems, etc., but we have to [55:04] have a certain sense of commonality, [55:06] shouldn't we? [55:07] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I really [55:10] did want to do more than analyze in this [55:12] book. I really wanted to be um I wanted [55:15] to create what I thought was a viable [55:18] prescription. Um, so you know that [55:22] coming up with some ideas for that was [55:24] not challenging. But what was [55:25] challenging is I wanted it to be viable. [55:27] The prescription wasn't challenging, but [55:29] the viability of it was challenging. [55:31] >> Um, and again, as as we'll discuss, a [55:34] lot of this depends on organizational [55:36] buyin. Um, and so I don't come from the [55:38] Jewish organizational world. As you [55:40] know, as you've said, I'm an academic. [55:42] And so I I I was very very blessed that [55:45] I have a dear friend Dan Elbam who you [55:47] know has has worked in the Jewish [55:49] organizational world his whole life. Um [55:51] and he's he's now the CEO of uh the [55:54] friends of the IDF Orphans and Widows. [55:56] Um he was the head of the North American [55:57] Jewish Agency during the time I was [55:59] writing this. And Dan was really [56:00] helpful. He connected me with um very [56:03] very high level people that I could not [56:04] have gotten access to. It's not like you [56:07] can just email the CEO of JFNA or, you [56:10] know, any of these big organizations. [56:12] It's like, yeah, right. [56:13] >> You need an entree. [56:14] >> You need an entree. And and he was [56:16] wonderful. He actually um he actually [56:19] get he get gets a whole sentence in my [56:20] acknowledgements because he was just so [56:22] amazing. Um and yeah, he connected me to [56:24] people who could then read this chapter [56:26] and say, and I said, "What do you think? [56:28] Could this work? What tell, you know, [56:30] give me your reaction." And so I vetted [56:32] this before a fair number of people [56:34] >> who are in that world and basically I [56:38] started to think about and this this can [56:39] actually be a model for America too [56:41] because as polarized as America is I do [56:43] believe there are certain principles and [56:45] I'm not going to get into what those [56:47] could be because that's not relevant to [56:48] this but that all virtually all [56:51] Americans might agree on. Okay. But when [56:53] it comes to the Jewish world, yes, the [56:55] the eight points that I talk about in my [56:58] consensus platform are things that I [57:00] think most most Americans, Jews would. [57:04] >> And and I want to get to those in just a [57:06] sec. And before we do, I think it's [57:08] worthwhile to talk just just once before [57:12] once before, you know, we get into some [57:14] of the specifics there. um a little bit [57:16] about again the polarization that we're [57:19] facing right now because something I [57:21] didn't ask you about because you have a [57:22] whole chapter on it. Okay. Anti-semitism [57:25] makes Jews a polarizing people is the [57:27] title of the chapter and I want to ask [57:29] you just about that before we get into [57:32] um uh those eight points. Um you have [57:36] why he why here? Why now? You you talk [57:39] about the left, you talk about the [57:41] right, you talk about intersectionality, [57:43] um in the darkest corners, gendered [57:45] anti-semitism, for example, which I [57:48] think is really important. I feel like [57:49] on each one of those we could do a whole [57:51] separate conversation. But if before we [57:54] get into um those eight points and then [57:57] really what we need to do and I know by [57:59] the way I was the one that introduced [58:00] that whole section so I shouldn't have [58:02] actually I jumped the gun but you know I [58:04] think it's important to talk about um [58:07] the nature of that polarization given [58:10] those different factors given the left [58:12] given the right given intersectionality [58:15] given what's been happening in academia [58:17] that's your wheelhouse etc and I'm just [58:19] wondering in the broadest of brush [58:20] strokes what should we know what should [58:23] we think about as we think about how [58:26] polarized we really are in those [58:28] different segments of society. [58:31] >> Sure. Well, I I mean, one point that I [58:33] do want to emphasize, okay, the title of [58:36] that chapter is we're a polarizing [58:38] people, meaning that that there are [58:40] people who find us polarizing. That's [58:42] the anti-semitism, right? But it's also [58:44] that anti-semitism has become a source [58:46] of polarization among American Jews, you [58:49] know? So for example um prior to October [58:52] 7th okay but in that period where we [58:54] just started coming back to co you know [58:56] where we just started coming back to [58:57] those of us who go to synagogue we were [58:59] just going back into person whatever [59:01] people were you know engaging in [59:03] conversations and a very very common [59:05] topic um in at least in my synagogue and [59:08] people would always ask me about this as [59:09] an academic they say do you think [59:10] anti-semitism is worse on the left or [59:12] the right okay that again and Jews were [59:16] divided you know over that and typically [59:18] they were divided based on where they [59:20] were politically. If they were [59:21] politically conservative, they would [59:23] say, "Oh, it's worse on the left." If [59:24] they were politically liberal, they [59:25] would say, "Oh, it's worse on the [59:27] right." I mean, it kind of tracks every [59:29] single time. Um, as an academic, I got a [59:33] whole lot of experience on even before [59:36] October 7th on what it looks like on the [59:38] left. And so, you know, for me that was [59:40] my benchmark. But yes, I think uh [59:42] another example of Jews being polarized [59:45] based on anti-semitism itself um is the [59:48] difference between the Nexus and the [59:49] IHRA. You know, there are Jews who favor [59:52] Nexus. Typically, they're more [59:54] politically liberal. There are Jews who [59:55] favor um IHRA and typically they they [59:58] they may be more politically [60:00] conservative. Not all who favor that [60:02] are. But again, the politics drives some [60:05] of those choices. But in terms of how we [60:09] are polarizing to others, yeah, that's a [60:12] topic that, you know, I talk about when [60:14] I started noticing the difference um in [60:17] anti-semitism. It was 2014 and I discuss [60:20] in the book exactly when that [60:21] realization happened. I won't get into [60:23] that here because, you know, I know we [60:25] want to get to other things. Um, and [60:27] then it just sort of kept, you know, [60:28] growing. But really, I would say since [60:31] October 7th and then really the the days [60:36] and years after October 7th, so now [60:39] we're in 2026, almost 2027, right? You [60:42] know, we're almost 3 years out of [60:45] October 7th. Um, it's it's it just [60:48] continues to escalate um the [60:50] anti-semitism and it's troubling. It's [60:52] just very troubling. [60:53] >> Yeah. And it what's interesting as you [60:55] point out in the book is that you [60:56] identified this [60:58] >> back in 2014, 2013, 2014 that this was a [61:02] trend, [61:03] >> right? [clears throat] [61:03] >> So it wasn't just because of October [61:05] 7th. [61:06] >> No. No. I mean, I saw that. Yes. I I [61:09] talk about that as I said, I talk about [61:11] I I kind of started noticing it in 2014. [61:13] And you know, again, when you're an [61:14] academic and there were things that were [61:16] going on um you know, in academia and [61:18] specifically in the legal academy and I [61:20] I do talk about the legal academy. I [61:22] have a chapter as you know on media and [61:24] social institutions and that [61:26] specifically covers media and and [61:28] education and in the education I talk [61:31] broadly but I do hone in on law because [61:33] that's kind of where my focus is um and [61:36] I talk about some particularly egregious [61:38] um situations um involving law schools [61:42] um with which I was familiar and that [61:43] got a lot of um that got a lot of play [61:45] and this is before October 7th and then [61:47] October 7th you know all everything just [61:51] sort of blew up everywhere and and we're [61:53] still, you know, I I would say we're [61:56] still, you know, I conclude in the book, [61:58] you know, that I don't see institute I [62:00] don't see educational institutions [62:02] fixing themselves. And now we're having [62:04] more problems with public schools, you [62:06] know, and that's become another even [62:08] more again as I was writing this book, [62:10] that even became an increasingly visible [62:13] issue. [62:14] >> Yeah. The whole K through 12 scenario is [62:17] just really alarming. [62:18] >> Really alarming. It truly is. That [62:21] actually is a really nice segue then [62:24] into this whole notion of self-help and [62:27] what we actually should do. So, turning [62:30] it over to you. What should we do? We we [62:33] actually, you know what? I'm actually [62:35] going to take the lead on something here [62:37] actually, Bobby, though, because um we [62:39] we alluded to it. I tell you, there's so [62:41] much in this book. I feel like I could [62:42] talk to you for 12 hours about this, but [62:44] there's so much in the book. you have a [62:46] chapter or a subchapter developing a [62:48] Jewish consensus and building a stronger [62:51] center. So that was that quote that I [62:52] read uh just a moment ago. Okay. And you [62:56] have eight points of areas, eight areas [63:00] if you will that could be of agreement [63:02] amongst the Jewish community. And I'll [63:06] tell you what, do you want to share what [63:08] those eight are, or do you want me to [63:10] read them and have you respond to them? [63:12] Why don't I? Because I have it open now. [63:14] page 164 for you with the book. The [63:16] first one is Israel has the right to [63:18] exist as a Jewish democratic state. I [63:20] think everyone can can agree on that. [63:22] Most people except for those ardent [63:24] anti-Zionists. Okay, fine. American [63:27] >> and the statistics support that. I mean, [63:28] the statistics support that [63:30] statistically. Yeah. [63:31] >> Yeah. Exactly. Um, American Jews were [63:34] shocked and unprepared for the severity [63:36] of anti-Jewish and anti-Israel sentiment [63:39] that spewed from all directions [63:40] following October 7, 2023. that I agree. [63:43] I want you to weigh in on that though, [63:45] Bobby, because I kind of always saw also [63:48] this growing anti-semitism. And so I [63:50] always saw it there and I'm so surprised [63:52] when people say that they didn't see it [63:54] coming. Um but but there you go. [63:58] >> But the severity I think the severity [64:01] the sever I suppose the severity and we [64:03] should give a shout out though to some [64:05] universities that really clamped down [64:07] and that have been very welcoming to [64:08] Jews. So So that's a nice thing. Um, [64:11] number three, American universities by [64:13] and large have proven to be a huge [64:15] disappointment, what you're just talking [64:16] about, in fighting anti-semitism on [64:19] their campuses. It's so true. And by the [64:21] way, when those hearings went on, Bobby, [64:23] with the three presidents, uh, Harvard, [64:26] Penn, and MIT, and people can read in [64:29] your bio uh, on our website that you are [64:33] a PennDrad. You went to University of [64:34] Pennsylvania Law School. I'm just [64:36] wondering what were you thinking when [64:38] you saw the hearing? [64:41] >> I was just so I mean I I was just so [64:43] disappointed. I I was just so incredibly [64:46] you know disappointed, you know, and and [64:49] but but again I I wasn't alone. It's not [64:51] like Penn was the only campus. No. And [64:54] and it was just also you know it was [64:57] disappointment in in my particular [64:59] institution. You know my undergraduate [65:01] um college was Brown. You know they had [65:04] had issues as well. I mean, you know, [65:06] there was just a sense of [65:07] disappointment, but it was also um, you [65:10] know, again, when you take a step back [65:12] and you think about what the educational [65:14] environments had been, particularly in [65:16] the more elite schools, but not just [65:17] limited to the elite schools, you [65:20] understand, you know, my chapter on [65:21] education and discussing the doctrines [65:24] of um, you know, intersectionality and [65:27] settler colonialism, which you know, [65:29] Adam Kirst's book was wonderful on um, [65:31] unbundling those topics. I I talk about [65:33] that a lot in my book. You understand [65:36] why it is that that we're in the [65:38] situation that we are, but it's sort of [65:41] it kind of all kind of hit us over the [65:43] head. It's like we knew it, but there [65:45] was knowing and there was knowing and [65:47] those hearings made it clear that uh we [65:50] really, you know, [65:52] >> yeah, I think it was all brewing and [65:53] then it manifested and I think that's [65:55] what you're that's that's really the [65:57] difference. Show three was again about [65:58] the American universities uh being [66:01] disappointment and then the fourth is [66:02] fighting anti-semitism from all sources [66:05] is critical thousand% everyone can agree [66:08] on that. Five kamas and all forms of [66:11] Islamic terrorism as well as terrorism [66:13] on the part of extremist Jewish Israelis [66:15] must be explicitly condemned and I think [66:18] everyone can get on board with that. [66:21] Six, innocent Palestinians who are also [66:23] victims of radical Islamic ideology [66:25] deserve Jewish sympathy and support. And [66:27] I think everyone can generally get on [66:29] board with that. Um although it's sad to [66:32] see and I think the footnote for me when [66:34] I read that though was the amount of [66:37] Palestinians that went into Israel every [66:40] day. The amount of Gazins that went into [66:42] Israel every day, got a paycheck, got, [66:45] you know, made a living, those that got [66:47] medical care in Israel. And then what? [66:51] They were the ones that ended up [66:52] stealing the plans for the kibbutim, [66:54] found out where the where the power was, [66:56] where the munitions were, where the safe [66:58] rooms were, so on and so forth. I know [67:00] you're not talking about those people [67:02] here per se, but the average innocent [67:05] person that is caught up in the does not [67:07] like kamas, for example, or does not [67:10] support kamas. Okay. Number seven, [67:12] there's number seven and number eight, [67:13] and that's what I want to uh focus a [67:15] little bit on because I have some [67:16] questions on that. Number seven, [67:18] criticism of the Israeli government's [67:20] policies and decisions is appropriate. [67:24] It's what we talked about actually [67:25] already, right? And it's just this whole [67:27] notion of, you know, to what extent, [67:30] see, this is the interesting thing [67:31] though. So like someone like Brett [67:33] Stevens can do it. If I were to do it on [67:36] social media, I think people would say, [67:37] see, he's critical of Israel. Therefore, [67:40] it gives me the person that has no [67:42] Israel engagement license to be critical [67:44] of Israel. However, I really like what [67:47] you said earlier that if someone like [67:49] yours truly were to criticize Israel, um [67:52] it would give my support of Israel even [67:54] more credence because I'm not looking at [67:56] Israel through rosecolored glasses. I [67:59] think that's what that's really what [68:00] you're saying. One thing, one thing on [68:02] that point though, Bobby, about the [68:04] criticism of of Israel's government. [68:06] When the judicial reform, and I'd love [68:08] you to weigh in on this. When the [68:09] judicial reform issue was hot before [68:13] October 7th, so many Israeli, excuse me, [68:16] so many American Jews that I know were [68:18] weighing in on it. How could they do [68:19] this? And then I started asking them if [68:23] what it was that they were so against. [68:25] >> Yeah. [68:26] >> And they couldn't really tell me. They [68:28] could say that they were against [68:29] Netanyahu. Why? Because Netanyahu is of [68:32] the right and they are from the left. [68:34] And so therefore, but they couldn't even [68:36] tell me. And so within everyone within [68:38] earshot, I just wanted to share this [68:40] that if you are critical of Israel, [68:43] >> please do your homework and please or [68:45] critical of anywhere. Please do your [68:46] homework, right? [68:48] >> Um about whatever it is that you're [68:49] critical about, [68:50] >> right? And and I want to say one word [68:52] about just that particular issue, the [68:54] Israeli reforms of 2022. So I have a law [68:58] degree. I have some understanding of the [69:01] Israeli judicial system because I wrote [69:03] about that in my book, The Myth of the [69:05] Cultural Jew. So, I have some [69:06] understanding of it. When that issue [69:08] surfaced, I spent hours trying to [69:12] understand this issue, even with a legal [69:14] background, even with some knowledge of [69:16] the Israeli system. even listening I [69:18] listened to a podcast that the Jewish [69:20] journal had sponsored with um uh Simka [69:25] Rothman who was one of the proponents [69:27] and one an Israeli professor I think he [69:29] was at uh Reichman who was against it [69:31] and I listened to that whole thing. I [69:33] read a a huge article in Mosaic [69:35] magazine, you know, explaining it. And [69:38] after I I would say 20 hours of trying [69:41] to understand, [69:43] I don't think I really succeeded in [69:46] totally absorbing the essence of it. Um, [69:50] and so I got the I I I understood the [69:53] general issue, right? And so I would ask [69:55] my Israeli friends, uh, most of my [69:58] Israeli friends, even my Israeli friends [70:00] that are orthodox were out in the [70:02] streets. One of them told me, you know, [70:04] Israel does need some reform of [70:06] judiciary. This is not it. Right? So [70:09] another one one other one of my friends [70:10] was actually speaking at all the uh in [70:13] protest. He was like at the megaphone. [70:15] So, I mean, my feeling is like this is [70:17] not necessarily something American Jews [70:19] should be weighing into because they [70:21] don't really know enough and and very [70:23] few would have the ability to really [70:26] understand their legal system and what's [70:29] right and what's wrong. And that's why a [70:31] lot of American rabbis, as I point out [70:32] in the book, didn't kind of go near that [70:34] issue. But then, um, there was an [70:36] article by three, Marty Freeman was one [70:39] of the three um, Israeli journalists. I [70:41] think it was Marty Yosi Klein Levy and [70:43] Daniel Gordes, right? They wrote this [70:44] piece basically urging American Jews to [70:46] get involved because they they saw that [70:48] the reforms were dangerous. But and so [70:50] but you know American Jews are really [70:52] much more I mean I would say most [70:54] American Jews I know especially the [70:56] non-Orthodox ones what are they [70:57] concerned at? They're concerned about [70:58] the hotel. They're concerned about you [71:00] know women having a place to pray. [71:01] They're concerned about not being pelted [71:03] with stones when they're doing a women's [71:05] minion on the women's side which one of [71:07] my dearest friends what had the [71:09] experience of happening to her just a [71:10] few months ago. That's what they're [71:12] concerned about. But the reforms, it's [71:14] too intricate. Uh, you know, they're not [71:16] going to understand that. [71:17] >> Yeah. Absolutely. And also, I know [71:19] non-Jewish American people who also [71:22] weighed in and thought, you know, [71:25] weighed in on the side of those that [71:26] were protesting. And I thought to [71:28] myself, well, you're not protesting [71:30] legal reforms in Germany or Estonia or [71:33] Uruguay. You know, wh why should Israeli [71:37] reforms matter to you in the legal [71:38] sphere? Okay, final one. Uh, number [71:41] eight here. [71:43] In aspirational terms, in aspirational [71:47] for you, our wonderful Israelcast [71:48] community, Bobby has put in italics. [71:52] Okay. In aspirational terms, a two-state [71:55] solution is the ideal long-term solution [71:58] to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. [72:00] Also, ideal long-term solution is in [72:04] italics as well. [72:05] >> Yeah. [72:06] >> Okay. And you know, there are a lot of [72:08] people that um that wouldn't agree to [72:10] that. And I have a quote here and I want [72:13] to read it. Page 169 from uh you've [72:16] referenced him before, Rabbi Amiel Hirs. [72:19] Yeah. [72:19] >> Uh who's just wonderful. And he wrote [72:22] here quote he wrote here quote he gave a [72:25] sermon by the way and he declared that [72:27] here here he goes. He has no he no [72:30] longer believed in the two-state [72:32] solution to resolve the Israeli [72:34] Palestinian conflict at least not in his [72:36] lifetime. His rationale was simple. [72:38] simply stated, quote, "The polite lie [72:41] that we tell ourselves is that Hamas [72:43] does not represent the Palestinians. It [72:46] is simply not true. Palestinianism is [72:49] more about destroying the Jewish state [72:51] than creating a state of their own." [72:54] >> Yeah. Right. [72:55] >> You know, but but as we talked about uh [72:58] uh before in a previous conversation, [73:01] the definitive word here is [73:02] aspirational. [73:04] >> Correct. [73:04] >> Correct. Okay. And if you want to weigh [73:06] in on that. [73:07] >> Yeah. I mean, I I think again, if you [73:10] were to if you were to take a poll of [73:13] American Jews, they would say that they [73:16] agree with that statement. Now, again, [73:19] my my plan to form the center, it's not [73:22] just, you know, okay, everybody agrees. [73:24] Kumbaya, we're all done. No, we're not [73:26] all done. These eight points are the [73:28] basis of coming up and we haven't we [73:30] haven't mentioned this yet but I think [73:31] it's important to say the point of these [73:33] eight these eight points is to come up [73:35] with an educational narrative yes that [73:38] is tailor made to the um constituents of [73:44] the various components of the Jewish [73:46] organizational world. So the point of [73:49] these um meetings you know and again I [73:52] envision I envision a situation in which [73:55] organizational heads and I detail this [73:57] in quite a bit of detail in the book how [73:59] it can work they're brainstorming [74:02] they're talking about these issues and [74:03] so what you're just saying is like look [74:05] is it realistic is it not realistic [74:07] that's the part of the conversation but [74:09] what would bring people to the table and [74:12] I think even Rabbi Hirs um you know who [74:15] after I read that I think it was an EJP [74:17] or something and I I as soon as I read [74:19] that, I immediately I immediately [74:21] emailed him and I said, "Oh, wow. What [74:23] what what kind of reaction are you [74:25] getting [laughter] here?" I mean, it was [74:26] I was it was a little shocking. I I [74:28] won't lie. Um but the point is for [74:31] people to talk about it, to talk about [74:32] the concept of Palestinian innocence. I [74:35] have a long section on that in the book. [74:36] It's not like, okay, these things. No, [74:38] we have to have conversations. And the [74:40] point of having conversations with [74:41] people who may have strong views one way [74:45] or the other or who may may have some [74:47] doubts or reservations or whatever it [74:49] may be is to actually sit with people [74:53] that don't necessarily completely align [74:56] with your views. And then when it comes [74:59] time to crafting an educational [75:01] narrative and who is this narrative for? [75:04] Well, I mean, it would be nice to say if [75:06] we can just turn, you know, the 40% of [75:08] of Gen Z who are anti-Israel, [75:11] you know, whatever. I'm just pulling 40% [75:14] out. But we know that there's more among [75:16] that generation, the younger [75:17] generations, Jewish and non-Jewish, than [75:20] in prior generations. But it's not just [75:22] about that. We also have to think about, [75:24] you know, those who are still very much [75:26] from that generation in the pro-Israel [75:28] camp because there are, and I think that [75:29] gets lost in the shuffle sometimes. But [75:31] it's really also about the alphas, you [75:33] know, the the the the ones who are now, [75:36] you know, growing up and they're in [75:38] preschool, they're in grade school, [75:40] they're in high school even. And and [75:42] they're the ones that really need to be [75:45] equipped, you know, to know about Israel [75:47] and to have a good narrative. And that [75:51] narrative has to be crafted. It's going [75:53] to look different. the narrative that, [75:56] you know, um, uh, you know, a staunchly [76:00] pro-Israel organization perhaps like the [76:03] Federation might craft might be a little [76:05] bit different from one that's a little [76:07] bit more to the left, right? Okay. [76:09] They're going to look different for [76:11] their constituents, but they're all [76:12] going to be the product of discourse and [76:15] sitting with people that don't [76:17] necessarily completely align and [76:19] reinforce your own views. And so that's [76:22] the point. So to come back to that last [76:24] point, it's totally fine to have people [76:27] say, "Okay, but how realistic is this? [76:29] Let's have a conversation about that." [76:30] Because that's an important issue, but [76:32] the fact that if it could happen, that [76:35] would be wonderful, right? That's the [76:37] point that I think the majority of [76:39] Americans can agree on, [76:40] >> right? And you know, tying it all [76:42] together and really at its core what the [76:44] book is about and it's what we talked [76:46] about at the very beginning. It's about [76:48] a center. It's about bringing people [76:50] together. It's about synergy. It's [76:52] about, as you just discussed, it's about [76:54] education and having that whole [76:56] conversation because um the Jewish [76:58] community is indeed, as the title [77:00] suggests and says, is so polarized, [77:03] right? There are all of these different [77:04] factions, whether it's religious, [77:06] whether it's political, whether it's [77:07] that stew, the combination thereof. And [77:10] it's how do we really begin to to unite [77:13] people together? Because at the end of [77:15] the day, as as you point out in the [77:16] book, is that we can't rely on other [77:18] people. We have to take the [77:20] responsibility ourselves. We have to [77:22] take the bull the bull by the horns [77:24] ourselves. My words, not not yours. [77:26] There's something else that has to [77:28] change though. And you you bring it up [77:29] in the book and it's you need to change [77:32] the way we speak. And you had an [77:34] experience in your family law class is [77:36] an example of that. And I think that was [77:39] an important illustration of how when [77:42] the language is used in such a way and [77:45] we're very careful with the words that [77:46] we use, then it's it's a way of uniting [77:49] people together versus creating this [77:51] division that we have. [77:53] >> Yeah. Exactly. Um, and before I just [77:55] comment on the speech part, there's one [77:57] other aspect of the book that I think is [77:59] important that we didn't touch on yet, [78:00] but I do want to just mention, and [78:02] that's, you know, in addition to that [78:03] narrative about Israel, that educational [78:05] narrative about Israel that we've been [78:07] talking about. The other important point [78:08] is that I think there needs to be more [78:10] synergy between the different religious [78:12] groups. Yeah. You know, I think for a [78:14] long time, you know, Orthodoxy were sort [78:15] of like except for the Orthodox people [78:18] who are involved in Kiru outreach [78:19] movements to the less religious, but [78:22] except for them, you know, the Orthodox [78:23] kind of stay in their in their lane and [78:26] there's not a lot of cross [78:27] fertilization. That's not true. When [78:28] you're an academic, you do have um a [78:31] little bit more interaction with people [78:32] who practice differently than than than [78:35] you might. And if in certain [78:36] professions, you might have that as [78:38] well. But you know there's a lot of [78:40] people that you know who are liberally [78:42] religious that never meet an orthodox [78:43] person or or talk or engage with them [78:46] and vice versa [78:47] >> and they have perceptions of the other. [78:49] >> Exactly. [78:50] >> That are completely off. [78:52] >> Exactly. Exactly. And so that's why I [78:54] also think there has to be more you know [78:57] um and I talk about this in the book. I [78:59] talk about the importance of people from [79:01] different denominations actually having [79:03] more contact with one another because [79:05] the you know again united we stand right [79:08] >> absolutely [79:09] >> and divided we fall so absolutely we [79:12] can't be bickering you know between [79:13] ourselves but yes in terms of language [79:16] so that that is important too so what [79:18] what had happened was um one of my [79:19] students um called me before we were [79:21] going to be covering dos um and she [79:23] emailed me and she said do not call on [79:25] me for this I was um I think dos you [79:28] know Supreme Court big decisions come [79:29] down in June. So I guess the prior I was [79:31] teaching in the fall the prior spring [79:34] her conlaw professor had taught dos but [79:36] it wasn't the supreme court dos it was [79:38] the lower court but they talked about it [79:40] and I guess she's you know she's more [79:41] conservative and she's not really a a [79:43] fan of of abortion [clears throat] [79:46] um and she said she got a lot of flack [79:49] from her classmates and she said do not [79:50] I don't I just need to get out of here [79:52] graduate whatever so I said don't worry [79:54] I'm not going to call on you and and [79:55] when I teach jobs I really focus on the [79:59] student I I really make the students [80:01] think about it from the standpoint of [80:03] whether whether this right should be a [80:06] state-based right, okay, or is there [80:08] really something in the constitution [80:10] that actually um compels um you know [80:14] saying that this is a constitutionally [80:15] protected right. That's something you [80:17] could talk about regardless of what your [80:18] view is on abortion. So, I think she [80:20] really appreciated that and and she [80:22] wrote to me afterwards and I actually [80:23] took her for a coffee even after that [80:25] and she said, "This was like the first [80:26] time I felt heard in a law school [80:28] classroom because it's true. I mean, in [80:30] many law schools, the vast majority of [80:33] students do not have her views." Um, I I [80:36] have very few conservative students [80:38] generally and and that that's just the [80:40] way it is. It's, you know, I'm sure it's [80:43] not like that at all schools, but at [80:44] many it is. And so, um, I think they [80:47] appreciated just having a different [80:49] perspective that wasn't bashing their [80:52] their their particular view with respect [80:54] to that. And that comes back to how we [80:57] speak. That comes back to the respect. [80:59] That comes back to you can have a [81:00] different opinion, but again, it goes [81:03] back to what Professor Ellie think uh, [81:06] Finkele's research shows. You can't, you [81:09] know, you you want to avoid the [81:10] othering. You want to avoid the moral [81:13] repugnancy [81:14] uh of someone who has a different [81:16] viewpoint like listen to them. You may [81:18] not agree but but keep the language [81:20] civil and as you know Jewish tradition [81:22] has so many uh narratives in the Talmud [81:27] that talk about that right and and you [81:29] know the most famous being that the [81:32] students of hell um you know were [81:34] respectful more respectful to the [81:35] students of Shmay and that's why h you [81:38] know uh you know sort of prevailed in [81:39] terms of in terms of the hierarchy but [81:41] that respect that's really what's [81:44] missing in a lot of today's discourse. I [81:46] couldn't agree more. By the way, when [81:48] you were talking about different [81:50] denominations not interacting with one [81:52] another, I think we need to give Kabad a [81:55] shout out. [81:56] >> Sure. [81:57] >> Because they have been so wonderful with [81:59] Outreach and they meet Jews wherever [82:01] they are. They say, "We don't care if [82:04] you're whatever or if you're not even [82:07] practicing. We want to help you on your [82:09] spiritual journey." [82:11] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. [82:12] >> And that's why we love Kabad so much. [82:14] >> Absolutely. And by the way, wherever you [82:16] go, where as a traveler, I got to tell [82:18] you, wherever you go in the world, [82:20] except Greenland, there was no I was [82:21] there last summer and there was no Kabad [82:23] in Greenland. And as [82:25] >> there is no one in Iceland. [82:26] >> Oh, is there one in Iceland? [82:28] >> They just opened. [82:28] >> Oh, did they? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, [82:30] yes. I I I learned that. And as you [82:32] know, I was just in Zimbabwe and there's [82:33] no Kabad as we speak in Zimbabwe. But [82:36] hey, you never know. [82:37] >> You never know. [82:38] >> You never know what's going to happen [82:39] tomorrow or by the time that we uh by [82:42] the time that we end up releasing this [82:43] episode. So, as we begin to wind down [82:45] our conversation, um, is there anything [82:47] that surprised you in particular as you [82:50] were doing the research, the very [82:52] extensive, may I add, research for this [82:55] book, or was there any sort of aha [82:57] moment that you had? [82:59] >> Um, you know, that's a great that's a [83:02] great question. I think the one thing [83:03] that did surprise me was just how the um [83:10] the negativity that I was writing about [83:13] in terms of the anti-semitism and in [83:15] terms of the university environment and [83:17] all of that, how that just sort of [83:20] continued [83:22] to mushroom. you know, I I thought I [83:24] thought I had a handle on all the [83:26] different kinds of anti-semitism, for [83:27] example, and then, you know, I I would [83:30] hear about, you know, certain [83:33] commentators, they they would they they [83:35] would get more, you know, visibility, [83:38] you know, and and they that's still it [83:39] it just it keeps building. I think [83:42] that's the thing that that that seemed a [83:44] little bit different to me from the [83:46] other books that I've written. It just [83:47] and I and and it makes you wonder like, [83:49] okay, so where are we going to where are [83:50] we going to end up? And that's the [83:52] question that I think we're all [83:53] wondering like where where are we going [83:54] to end up you know and and and also you [83:57] know what are we we I mean the Jewish [83:59] people generally here in the context of [84:01] the American Jews in particular you know [84:03] what are we going to do to really take [84:05] matters into our own hands you know will [84:07] organizations really be able to work [84:09] together to join hands you know to have [84:12] um a synergy between themselves um I [84:15] want to be hopeful and hope that they
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