Transcript [00:00] One of the remarkable things about the [00:01] post 911 world was that we were [00:03] simultaneously told two things from the [00:05] highest levels of government across the [00:07] west. The first was and there was much [00:10] value in this not to generalize or [00:14] essentialize [00:15] Muslims. [00:17] Not to say that the hijackers for [00:20] instance had any connection with Muslims [00:22] in general, but at the same time as we [00:24] were told that [00:26] no Muslim should be held responsible for [00:28] an act of terror carried out in the name [00:31] of Islam, we were told that everybody [00:33] else is collectively responsible for any [00:36] ill ever done by anyone in the West. [00:40] And I reject this. [00:43] I think you could play one of those [00:44] programs, but not both. simultaneously [00:48] or not both simultaneously without some [00:50] of us putting up our hands and calling [00:52] BS. [00:53] I deeply object to this. The idea that a [00:56] generation should be taught every [00:58] imaginable ill that has ever occurred in [01:01] the American or Western past as being [01:03] something for which they today must [01:05] atone. [01:19] my conversation right after this short [01:21] message. This is the moment to send [01:24] young Jewish adults on a birthright trip [01:26] to Israel. Not next year, now. Because [01:30] after 2 and 1/2 years of misinformation, [01:32] reality needs to speak for itself. Over [01:35] the past 25 years, Birthright has sent [01:38] more than 900,000 young Jews to Israel. [01:41] They come back more confident, more [01:43] connected to each other and to Israel. [01:46] They go on to build Jewish families, [01:47] lead our communities, and feel part of a [01:50] 4,000-year Jewish history that belongs [01:52] to them. Birthright's new goal is to [01:55] send another 200,000 young adults to [01:58] Israel by 2029. But it takes people like [02:01] you to make that happen. To help shape [02:04] that future, go to one [02:06] tripchangesverthing.com. [02:11] Douglas, I want to start the [02:12] conversation by going right back to [02:16] September 11th, 2001. There's a real [02:18] sense that there's so much we got right [02:20] and there's so much that we as Americans [02:22] and the West understood [02:25] after September 11th, 2001, call it on [02:28] September 12th. What of those things [02:31] that we understood do you think we have [02:33] since forgotten or or maybe now suddenly [02:37] you can look back and say we [02:38] misunderstood? Well, first of all, of [02:40] course, it's an enormous pleasure to be [02:41] here with you, Dan, with so many friends [02:42] and colleagues uh here today. Some [02:45] readers will know I I I've quoted this a [02:47] number of times in columns, but there's [02:49] a there's a passage in the Czech writer [02:51] Milan Conderea's book Testaments [02:53] Betrayed, which he published in the [02:54] 1990s after the fall of the Berlin Wall [02:57] in which he said something about the [02:58] nature of history which is always on my [03:00] mind. He said, "Mankind operates [03:04] um in a fog and stumbles along the [03:08] trail, makes the trail as he walks." [03:11] This isn't the important thing. The [03:13] important thing is that when mankind [03:16] looks back, uh, he sees the man. He sees [03:20] the trail, but he doesn't see the fog. [03:24] Everything looks like it was going to go [03:28] the way that we ended up going. And the [03:31] people who weren't involved in it or [03:33] have been born afterwards can make all [03:36] of these judgments on this occasion [03:38] about the last quarter of a century [03:40] without understanding the fog in which [03:43] we all always are moving. [03:47] I hear a lot these days and have done [03:50] for many years like you um criticisms of [03:53] the interventions in Afghanistan and [03:56] Iraq. There's even a sort of popular [03:59] phrase on parts of the political right [04:01] as well as the left that we didn't [04:03] achieve anything and all sorts of of [04:06] claims like that. All of which ignore [04:10] what the world looked like on September [04:12] 11th, 12th and in the days after. And [04:15] I'm always struck when I read the [04:16] memoirs of members of the Bush [04:18] administration from those years just [04:21] what fog everyone was operating in. uh [04:24] Condisa Rice's memoirs, Donald Rumstro [04:28] memoirs. For instance, there was a [04:29] moment, as you know, Dan, um when a [04:33] package arrived at the White House [04:34] shortly after September the 11th, and it [04:36] seemed for a moment as if almost [04:39] everybody at the top of the chain of [04:41] command of the United States, apart from [04:43] the president, had been um vulnerable to [04:46] a Rice in attack. [04:48] And uh Con Lisa Rice in her memoir [04:51] describes this moment when they're all [04:53] in a room and realize that it's possible [04:56] that everybody in the administration [04:58] apart from the president is going to [05:00] die. Now operating in that kind of [05:05] situation not knowing whether there was [05:07] going to be another attack and much more [05:09] is something that we seem to have [05:10] forgotten and so little credit it seems [05:14] to me and has been given to the members [05:17] of the administration patriotic men and [05:19] women who did their best in those hours [05:22] and days to avert another attack. They [05:25] did avert many attacks many attacks that [05:28] we know about and many that we don't. [05:31] And so I'd say first of all that the the [05:33] simple fact of the fact that the [05:35] American homeland did was not subjected [05:38] uh to another such attack [05:41] was an enormous achievement and an [05:43] achievement by many men and women whose [05:45] names we know and many whose names we [05:47] don't know. So that's the first thing. [05:50] Uh [05:52] the second is of course you know there [05:54] are criticisms that can be made in [05:57] hindsight. [05:59] I'd say that they often come back to the [06:02] same one that some people have mentioned [06:04] about the post October 7th world which [06:07] is um what happens when you have uh [06:11] kinetic success and lose the war at home [06:15] to a great extent. I wrote a column for [06:17] the free press last week about public [06:20] opinion after September the 11th. And [06:22] again, it's it's one of those things [06:24] which there are all the all of these [06:25] things that have been erased by memory. [06:28] For instance, one that's often on my [06:30] mind is there's been a narrative that's [06:33] been there for years now that America [06:35] had an enormous amount of sympathy [06:37] immediately after uh 9/11 and that [06:40] America squandered that sympathy. And [06:43] that is only partly true. [06:48] Um, in my own country of birth, Great [06:51] Britain, a week after 9/11, the American [06:53] ambassador was on the main BBC news [06:56] program, uh, Question Time. And I [06:59] remember watching it at the time. He was [07:01] almost reduced to tears [07:03] not by the attacks but by the response [07:07] of the audience in the room. The [07:09] audience of the British public who were [07:11] expressing a version of the sentiment [07:14] that was memorably expressed in the [07:17] London Review of Books, an utterly [07:18] unreadable journal that that doesn't [07:21] seem to be interested in books. [07:24] Um uh uh which is obsessed with Israel [07:27] and America and so on. But there was a [07:30] column in in the London Review of Books [07:32] then written by the prominent classicist [07:34] from Cambridge, Mary Beard, who never [07:35] suffered any um reputational damage for [07:39] writing a column in which she said, you [07:41] know, however much one might deprecate [07:42] the flying of planes into buildings. [07:45] Nevertheless, she said, you know, many [07:48] of us will have the sentiment that to [07:50] some extent America had it coming. [07:54] Now that sort of sentiment was very [07:56] widely held outside of this country [08:00] among allies of this country and it was [08:02] held from the day itself you know 15 [08:06] years after 9/11 [08:09] half of the French public in a poll said [08:12] we still don't know who carried out the [08:14] 9/11 attacks. Half. So, so these are all [08:18] things I think I'm just keen to frame [08:21] from the outset are things that are sort [08:22] of forgotten history and things that [08:25] have not been transmitted accurately to [08:27] the generation who've grown up looking [08:30] back at the last 25 years and forgetting [08:34] the fog and I think judging the men and [08:37] women involved in trying to find a path [08:39] through it extremely unfairly. At the [08:42] 20th anniversary of September 11th, you [08:45] wrote a piece in which you observed that [08:49] the US and the West had lost the will to [08:52] fight. First of all, do you still [08:54] believe that to be the case? You [08:55] remember my columns better than I do. [08:58] I'm here to keep you honest. To be fair, [09:01] I think it's hard to judge that from [09:02] moment to moment. I think my my opinion [09:04] may have changed slightly on that partly [09:07] because of what I like you have [09:08] witnessed in um Israel in the last 3 [09:12] years. It's extremely hard to know how a [09:14] country is going to respond uh after [09:17] it's attacked. And you know there have [09:20] been extraordinary examples in recent [09:22] years uh mainly you know I'm thinking of [09:25] Ukraine but also Israel of countries [09:27] that have been attacked and where the [09:29] response of you know young generation in [09:31] both countries has been to step up and [09:34] and it's good to be reminded of how many [09:37] young Americans had had that sentiment [09:39] after 9/11. I I I think there are [09:41] several things. I I think one is [09:44] and it's something I wrote two books [09:46] back I think in the war on the west [09:48] which is a very straightforward thing [09:50] which is you you'd be a darn fool to [09:52] risk your life for a country that was [09:55] rotten. [09:57] And it's been my belief for a long time [09:59] that there's been a very concerted [10:00] effort throughout our educational [10:03] institutions, [10:05] um, public institutions, some government [10:07] institutions to teach young Americans [10:10] and young people in the West that the [10:12] countries we come from are rotten. They [10:15] never really are plain about who they're [10:17] comparing us with. Sometimes if you push [10:20] them, they'll talk about the wonderful [10:22] health care opportunities in Cuba. [10:26] or the remarkable educational attainment [10:29] of the Venezuelans, [10:31] but but they don't like to be specific [10:34] about it, but they do like to degrade us [10:37] and to morally degrade us and try to um [10:42] make us fall into a sort of dispondency [10:44] about ourselves. And and I think that's [10:47] been going on for a very long time. [10:50] literally the pulling down of our [10:52] heritage and more uh as I've said often [10:56] the defiling of our holy places [10:59] and that's been something that's been [11:01] extremely concerted for a very long [11:02] time. My own view was that one of the [11:04] great turns in this country uh which has [11:07] not been remembered well enough was the [11:10] um ground zero mosque controversy [11:13] where it really did feel to me at the [11:16] time as though something crucial had [11:18] shifted or was shifting which was [11:22] instead of there being a recognition [11:24] this is what 8 years after 911 instead [11:27] of there being a recognition that there [11:29] was something at the very least impolite [11:31] right about this attempt to set up um a [11:37] mosque near the World Trade Center that [11:41] if you didn't defend that you were [11:43] somehow unamerican. [11:46] um something strange seemed to shift in [11:49] the culture that moment. That was also [11:50] the moment that the word Islamophobia, [11:53] for instance, started to really get [11:56] massively uh um used [11:59] um and and to persuade the American [12:01] people that there was something bigoted [12:04] here about us, about the people in the [12:06] West if if if we didn't go along with [12:09] each of these demands. I remember that [12:11] moment when all the faith leaders joined [12:13] the then mayor of New York to sort of [12:16] unite in saying we must build the [12:18] mosque. It it was one of those cultural [12:21] moments which are harder to define but [12:24] there are many such moments when one [12:26] thinks about and as I say I it's [12:28] extremely hard to say what people would [12:31] fight for if they've been told that the [12:33] thing that they are defending is not [12:35] worth defending and that's why my deep [12:37] belief for many years and why I've [12:39] exerted some of my energies in this area [12:41] has been to say people have been [12:44] miseducated on this not just at [12:46] education institutions but as a country [12:48] people are miseducated did hear about [12:50] their history. Same thing in my own [12:51] country of birth. They're told that [12:53] Winston Churchill's a villain and you [12:56] know that we're bad. [13:00] I was brought up in a different society [13:02] where we knew that we were good um that [13:06] we had made mistakes as any country had [13:08] but that fundamentally at heart we were [13:11] good and a force for good in the world. [13:13] It seems to me that Americans have been [13:16] slowly encouraged into this sense of [13:18] degrad self degradation to believe that [13:21] America is not good. And so it's going [13:23] to have to be a work of a generation to [13:25] re-educate people who've been so badly [13:28] miseducated. But let me propose a a [13:32] different take which is a big part of [13:35] this drift that you're describing or [13:38] miseducation was made possible by our [13:40] success in the years after September [13:42] 11th. You talked about what the mood [13:44] actually was after September 11th. The [13:46] mood was also one anticipating another [13:50] catastrophic attack [13:52] >> and it is one of the great successes [13:54] here that 25 years later there is not a [13:58] jihadi transnational organization that [14:00] has been able to wage a mass casualty [14:02] attack on America and that's for a [14:05] variety of reasons. The wars in Iraq and [14:07] Afghanistan are obviously controversial, [14:09] but the US and its coalition allies did [14:12] basically destroy al-Qaeda, did destroy [14:14] the ISIS caliphate, accomplish some [14:17] extraordinary measures and set up some [14:19] important programs on dealing with [14:20] terror financing and upgrading our [14:23] counter intelligence capabilities and [14:25] our special operations. I can go on and [14:27] on. So, there was extraordinary success [14:29] over these last couple decades [14:31] >> and obviously success can produce [14:34] complacency. [14:36] And at some point, complacency can bleed [14:37] into amnesia. [14:39] And if we weren't so successful over [14:43] these last two and a half decades, and [14:45] we were actually still in the fight, do [14:48] you still think that young generation, [14:50] in other words, they have the luxury of [14:52] being able to buy into stupid ideas [14:55] because they don't have to fight for [14:56] their existence? [14:57] >> Yes. But if they had to fight for their [14:59] existence, [15:01] maybe the luxury of of falling in love [15:03] with these stupid ideas, it wouldn't [15:05] wouldn't be something that it wouldn't [15:06] just be something they wouldn't choose. [15:07] There just would be no time for it. [15:09] That's what Rob Henderson, our [15:11] colleague, describes as luxury beliefs. [15:12] You always hope that people when reality [15:15] hits them are going to shift their [15:17] position. But you never know. We don't [15:20] know actually. I mean there was a poll [15:21] I've cited many times of you can never [15:24] polls are difficult of course as we know [15:25] but there was a poll after the invasion [15:27] of Ukraine asking Americans who would be [15:30] willing to fight stay and fight for [15:31] their country if um something similar [15:34] happened to the Russian invasion of [15:36] Ukraine and it was only just the [15:38] majority of Americans who said they'd [15:40] stay and fight. Uh not to make a [15:42] partisan point but the majority of [15:44] Republicans just said they would. And [15:47] well, I don't like to say what the [15:49] Democrats said, but now on the one hand, [15:52] of course, that poll is preposterous [15:54] because it's impossible for the American [15:57] public to imagine an army rolling in to [16:00] America from Canada said [16:05] at the moment, [16:08] but it it's it's pretty impossible for [16:11] the American imagination to have that [16:12] simply because it isn't in 250 years [16:15] really something that has has has [16:17] happened. I mean it's it feels different [16:18] in in Europe of course because [16:21] particularly Eastern Europe is very [16:23] familiar with armies going that way, [16:24] armies going that way and and the [16:26] knowledge that you can be bash batter [16:28] batted around by every imaginable [16:30] ideology and direction. That's sort of [16:32] the history of the 20th century in [16:34] Europe. But so so on the one hand it's [16:36] it's it's it's it's not worth looking at [16:39] like that because it is simply [16:40] inconceivable. On the other hand, it [16:41] does tell us something about people's [16:43] attitudes. Um but but yes, Dan, I mean [16:47] the thing that that is most troubling in [16:49] that is the amnesia about our successes. [16:52] Um and I would say another thing [16:54] >> and the threats [16:56] >> and the threats. Um [16:59] I'd say one other thing about that which [17:01] is I was recently watching re-watching [17:03] an interview with um former defense [17:05] secretary Donald Rumsfeld when he was [17:07] interviewed by John Stewart when [17:08] Ramsfeld's memoirs came out. I watched [17:10] it because I happened to see a interview [17:12] with Stuart recently in which he said [17:14] that it was the most disappointing [17:15] interview he'd ever done because he was [17:17] hoping to ensnare his uh interviewee and [17:20] he failed. He knew he'd failed. Anyone [17:23] who knew Rumsfeld could tell him that [17:25] he'd fail. But um it was interesting [17:29] rewatching it for many reasons. One was [17:31] that Rumsfeld was so intent on trying to [17:34] correct the mistake in history that had [17:36] that had already started to be enforced. [17:39] But the other was that even the studio [17:41] audience in America then in 2009 or 10 [17:45] was responding to Secretary Rumsfeld [17:48] with a deference and a respect which it [17:52] seems to me has evaporated in our public [17:55] life in the years since. Um, it's [17:58] actually quite hard to think of an [17:59] audience now treating an equivalent [18:03] politician at least as recognizing that [18:06] this is a patriot who, you know, spent [18:08] years in public service and therefore [18:10] was was a man deserving of respect. I [18:13] think that that's certainly something [18:14] that has been eroded, but there are many [18:16] reasons for that. So if you accept that [18:20] we actually have been from a security [18:22] operational standpoint successful since [18:25] September 11th, but yet we seem to have [18:27] been unsuccessful, which you've been [18:29] speaking about now, which you've been [18:30] writing about in the in the kind of [18:32] cultural war over what it means to be [18:35] the West, what it means to be America, [18:36] what it means to defend our values and [18:39] defend our way of life and defend [18:41] day-to-day life. [18:43] Should the wakeup call have then been [18:46] October 7th in terms of how much on the [18:48] that on the one hand we America had been [18:50] winning the post 911 kinetic war but the [18:54] reaction to in the world to October 7th [18:58] should have been a wakeup call that we [18:59] had completely lost the cultural war [19:02] since September 11th. I'm not sure if [19:05] we've completely lost it because there [19:06] are many young young Americans who and [19:09] Americans of all ages who have not [19:11] fallen for this tripe but that sense of [19:15] collective guilt which I've written [19:17] about a lot the spreading around of of [19:20] blame. I mean let me just put it this [19:21] way. One of the remarkable things about [19:23] the post 911 world was that we was we we [19:27] were simultaneously told two things from [19:29] the highest levels of government across [19:31] the west. The first was, and there was [19:34] much value in this, not to generalize or [19:37] essentialize [19:39] Muslims, [19:41] not to say that the hijackers, for [19:43] instance, had any connection with [19:45] Muslims in general. Now, there was a [19:47] very sensible um reason for doing that, [19:51] which is of course nobody wanted anyone [19:53] to take out their anger on their Muslim [19:57] friend or neighbor. But at the same time [19:59] as we were told that [20:02] no Muslim should be held responsible for [20:05] an act of terror carried out in the name [20:07] of Islam, we were told that everybody [20:09] else is collectively responsible for any [20:12] ill ever done by anyone in the West. [20:16] And I reject this. [20:19] I think you could play one of those [20:20] programs, but not both simultaneously. [20:24] Well, not both simultaneously without [20:26] some of us putting up our hands and [20:27] calling BS. [20:29] I deeply object to this. The idea that a [20:32] generation should be taught every [20:35] imaginable ill that has ever occurred in [20:37] the American or Western past as being [20:40] something for which they today must [20:42] atone. But if somebody [20:45] says Allah Akbar and detonates in Paris [20:49] or London or Manchester or Tel Aviv or [20:52] anywhere else, we've got to pretend that [20:55] Alaw Akbar is simply the Muslim [20:57] equivalent of the Lord's Prayer or [21:01] you know that there's something deeply [21:03] distasteful about asking where the [21:05] ideology of that attacker may have come [21:07] from. I think this has been a a serious [21:10] weakness in our armor. Okay. So, I I [21:13] want to ask you about what your council [21:16] would be to leaders today at any level [21:19] of government you choose, you know, the [21:22] federal government, state, municipal. I [21:24] mean, you're you're not as pessimistic [21:26] as I am, which is a weird thing for me. [21:28] You're usually Debbie Downer in our [21:30] conversations, and I find myself um [21:32] being more down on the state of the [21:34] cultural debate uh in this country about [21:37] these issues highlighted not only by the [21:41] post 911 world, the letter that Osama [21:44] bin Laden wrote to America that suddenly [21:46] got new life over the last couple of [21:48] years and started circulating or the [21:49] reaction among young people here and [21:52] throughout the West to October 7th. I'm [21:54] more pessimistic than you are, but let's [21:55] just say we're it's gradations. We're [21:57] both kind of concerned. What would your [21:59] council be to leaders to address this if [22:01] you're saying to them, you've won you've [22:03] effectively won the kinetic war. America [22:06] is more secure today than it was on [22:09] September 10th, the day before the [22:12] attacks, [22:14] but no one's been paying attention to [22:16] this other war. It's a war of ideas. [22:19] Again, going back 25 years, it's worth [22:21] remembering how many people used the act [22:24] actions of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda [22:27] as um as Chris Hitchens memorably said [22:30] um as a megaphone for whatever [22:32] prejudices they had themselves. So for [22:35] instance, if you were somebody who [22:37] believed that American capitalism [22:40] uh had problems, you could claim that [22:43] Osama bin Laden in his cave in [22:45] Afghanistan was making a rather valuable [22:47] critique of American capitalism. [22:50] If your beef was about the Jews and [22:53] Israel, you could claim that he'd done [22:54] it for that reason. And by the way, one [22:56] of the interesting things about the the [22:57] the the [22:59] new generation who discovered the letter [23:01] to America is that they clearly didn't [23:02] read it [23:05] and perhaps can't read any short [23:07] document. Um because if you read what [23:12] what is Asam Bin Laden wrote and said [23:15] repeatedly, is Israel was not an [23:17] important part of his argument. hardly [23:20] played. His main objections and the [23:23] objections of al-Qaeda were the um what [23:25] they saw as the outrage of the House of [23:28] S um having custody of the two holiest [23:31] places within Islam. I remember once [23:33] being so shortly into this on a radio [23:36] show with an absolute adult called Amy [23:38] Goodman. Um [23:41] one of the most profoundly stupid people [23:42] I've ever met. And and I thought I'd met [23:45] them all. [23:46] and she was sitting beside me in a BBC [23:48] studio on the World Service one day [23:50] about 2004 5 something like this and the [23:52] subject of Osama bin Laden and why he'd [23:55] um uh attacked America came up and I [23:58] said well if you read his um his message [24:02] among other things one one of the the [24:05] top three reasons why he wanted to [24:08] attack the west was because of the [24:11] bringing of democracy to East Teour [24:16] Now, first of all, I noticed as I said [24:19] this and I noticed a slight look of [24:21] bafflement on my interlocutor's face. We [24:26] went to a break and I noticed her [24:28] googling East Teeour. [24:32] Now, I mention that not just to make a [24:35] jab at at her, [24:37] although that's pleasant, [24:40] but I mention it because find me the [24:43] American student anywhere in this [24:45] country who has over the last 25 years [24:48] decided to live in a tent and crap in a [24:51] bucket over East Teour. [24:54] Find me them. They wouldn't know what I [24:56] was talking about. find me the the the [24:58] the protest. If they're so keen to pick [25:01] up Assama bin Laden's arguments and [25:04] regard him as having a searing critique [25:06] of the West, which is really worth [25:08] absorbing all these years later, get on [25:11] to the East Teeour question, guys. [25:14] You know, and so that's the first thing [25:16] I'd say is is that there's been a just a [25:18] massive misreading of of the history and [25:20] a misrepresentation of what America's [25:23] enemies said they were doing it for. And [25:26] now in recent months in particular, the [25:29] the Jews and the Jewish state have been [25:30] crowbarred into this. It's like a it's [25:33] like um a retrofitting of the argument. [25:36] Uh but the second thing I'd say I [25:37] suppose on the more practical and [25:39] kinetic front is the obvious thing which [25:40] is everywhere and always to try to cut [25:43] off the head of the snake. I believe the [25:46] administration in Washington is trying [25:47] to do this at the moment with the [25:49] Iranian revolutionary government. I [25:51] think that's long overdue myself. uh a [25:54] government that has spent 50 years [25:56] almost uh producing terror around the [25:59] world, killing American soldiers in Iraq [26:02] and elsewhere. Um pro currently [26:05] providing the the drones that are used [26:08] daily and which I've seen flying over me [26:10] in Ukraine. This is obviously a task [26:13] that's been long overdue and anyone [26:15] however people think it should be done. [26:19] The House of Saud whatever one thinks of [26:21] it has undoubtedly reformed [26:25] in the last 25 years and things this is [26:29] not to say that it is without flaw but [26:32] they have done things in their own [26:34] country including cracking down on and [26:37] stopping the funding and the funneling [26:39] of money to the extreme Madrases and [26:42] others. Well, I I'll just say actually I [26:44] I try to explain this to people now. [26:46] When you go back and think about the [26:49] House of Assad pre 911. [26:51] >> Mhm. We talked about the House of Assad, [26:54] the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the way [26:56] today we talk about Doha. The point is [26:58] the Saudis have have made significant [27:00] improvements. [27:02] The revolutionary government in Iran is [27:05] unfinished business and uh it surprises [27:09] me that it it's taken 25 years uh to [27:12] address that. as as for uh Qatar, I mean [27:17] it's it's I I've said this before, but [27:19] it's my belief that American companies [27:21] and others involved in um Qatar and [27:26] receiving funds and dealing with that [27:28] government in the way they have will at [27:30] some point there will be a terrorist [27:32] attack somewhere in which will lead to a [27:36] similar societal appropriat [27:42] uh was uh existing immediately after [27:45] 9/11 in those who had uh received [27:47] funding from the Saudis. [27:49] >> We'll be right back with more of my live [27:51] conversation at the Manhattan Institute [27:52] with Douglas Murray. [27:57] >> Hi, it's Gabe Silverstein from the Ark [27:59] Media team. You may know me from [28:01] research by Gabe Silverstein. Last [28:04] summer, I participated in a Birthright [28:06] trip, so I can tell you exactly what [28:07] they mean when they say one trip changes [28:10] everything. Birthright didn't just [28:11] connect me with my Israeli brothers and [28:13] sisters in a spiritual and lasting way. [28:16] Birthright gave me a deeper [28:17] understanding of what it means to be a [28:19] Jew and where I fit into the Jewish [28:21] story. It's incredible to me that this [28:23] organization exists. And I know that [28:25] behind every one of these trips are [28:27] generous people who made it happen. [28:29] People like you. Birthright Israel's [28:31] goal is to inspire and empower a new [28:34] generation of Jewish young adults. To [28:36] help make that happen and to create more [28:38] life-changing experiences like mine, [28:40] please visit [28:41] oneterripchangesverthing.com. [28:44] Birthright, one trip changes everything. [28:48] We are back with my conversation with [28:51] Douglas Murray. You wrote this piece [28:53] last week that you referenced earlier [28:55] about the war on truth and that really [28:57] is was a big focus of yours reflecting [29:00] on these 20 this 25th anniversary. [29:03] you go through in that piece the [29:06] different forms in which these [29:09] conspiracy theories are advanced today. [29:12] I'm not talking about the technology [29:13] that enables them, the podcasting and [29:16] social media. Leave aside the the the [29:17] platforms, but the style of argument [29:21] that we find ourselves in these [29:22] ridiculous debates trying to take on. I [29:24] sometimes it's like mind-numbing [29:26] sometimes. I cannot believe I'm arguing [29:28] these points. and you actually go [29:30] through I think three different [29:31] approaches that these conspiracy [29:33] theories take. Can you just briefly walk [29:35] through those and then I want to ask you [29:36] a question about [29:37] >> um I can't remember which order I did [29:39] them in but um yes the piece and free [29:41] press I wrote last week about this has [29:43] been much in my mind because I mean the [29:44] conspiracy theories that used to be on [29:46] the margins right [29:47] >> have certainly come into the mainstream [29:50] and not into the mainstream I don't want [29:51] to overstate it they've come into the [29:53] mainstream of the fringe let's say there [29:56] >> or the fringe now has reach that it [29:59] didn't have before people so so not not [30:01] necessarily everyone's buying into the [30:02] fringe but the fringe has an ability to [30:05] traffic their ideas in a way that they [30:06] may not have been able to. That's better [30:08] said exactly. Um I think conspiracy [30:13] theories about 911 started relatively [30:16] swiftly after but they took a while and [30:19] as I mentioned in that piece even even [30:22] somebody who who ended up as cranky as [30:25] they come like Gore Vidal a year after [30:28] 9/11 was merely saying that it's that [30:31] that we don't know who did the attacks [30:34] again generally if you believe in Okam's [30:37] razor you would believe that the attacks [30:39] are being carried out by the people who [30:41] carried out the attacks, [30:44] who boasted of carrying out the attacks [30:46] and whose leaders said they carried out [30:48] the attacks. There was some hilarity in [30:50] the 2000s. I remember at one point when [30:53] I'm in Alzawahiri, the the deputy head [30:55] of al-Qaeda, they carried out an attack [30:56] somewhere, I can't remember where, and [30:58] various leftists in the west said that [31:00] it was um someone else. And Al Zawhiri [31:03] came back on video again. He said, "It [31:05] was us." Like give us the credit. What [31:09] does a guy have to do is he's all but [31:12] accusing them of like stolen valor. Like [31:14] you're taking it away from us, [31:15] >> you know? Why do we go about plotting [31:17] the death of the infidel if the infidel [31:19] are not going to accept that it's us? I [31:21] know. I mean, um, but but my point is is [31:24] that in 2002 and that sort of period, [31:26] the most that the the conspiratorial [31:28] minded would do on the on the radical [31:31] left and the radical right was to say, [31:32] "We don't really know who did it, but it [31:36] might have been carried out as a way to [31:39] invade Afghanistan and Iraq." They were [31:42] cowardly in uh in where they would [31:45] actually make the accusation. You could [31:48] sort of pro them to it. They they were [31:49] nervous about actually saying for [31:51] instance that the American government or [31:52] the Zionists or somebody had brought [31:54] down the twin towers and attacked the [31:56] Pentagon of flight 93 in order to to do [31:59] these things. I think today, you know, [32:02] one of the alarming things, as you say, [32:03] is the sort of um fringe ideas that [32:07] took, you know, some years actually to [32:09] just date on the furthest fringes of the [32:11] internet are things that, you know, some [32:15] formerly sane and mainstream people are [32:18] pushing pushing out there. And the [32:20] things they do are always the same. And [32:22] I'll just quickly list a couple as I did [32:24] in that piece. one is to try to bewilder [32:26] the American public by focusing on a [32:30] detail so um obscure that nobody could [32:34] possibly have the information at hand to [32:36] deal with it. So in the case of the [32:39] London bombings, somebody mentioned [32:40] earlier the conspiracy theorists about [32:42] that who seem to believe that Tony [32:44] Blair's Labor government blew up our own [32:46] trains in order to invade Iraq 2 years [32:49] earlier. [32:51] Um [32:53] they would say things like well the b [32:55] the suicide bombers were claimed to have [32:57] left on the 607 train from Luton to [32:59] London that morning and actually if you [33:00] look at the schedule that train didn't [33:02] arrive. Yeah. Okay. [33:06] In order to answer that I'd have to [33:08] become an expert on the Luton to London [33:10] train timetable. I'm not sure if I've [33:12] got time. So again razor let's just [33:15] assume if they didn't get on the 607 [33:17] they got on the 614 train. The bombs [33:19] still went off. Their bodies were [33:22] splattered everywhere along with the [33:23] bodies of their dozens of victims. But [33:26] this is this is one of the conspiracy [33:28] theorist's best tools. They've done it [33:30] for the last 25 years about the Twin [33:32] Towers. They say things like, "I've [33:35] never seen towers fall like that," [33:39] which is so disgusting and absurd. And [33:42] the obvious explanation is how many [33:44] times have you seen [33:47] civilian jetliners carrying hundreds of [33:49] innocent people flown into large [33:52] skyscrapers? And the answer is never. So [33:56] you're pretending to be expert in [33:57] something you could not possibly be [33:59] expert in. But the main one all the time [34:01] is is is is the insinuation of motive [34:05] without being honest about what the [34:07] motive is. And as I said in that piece, [34:09] it's very striking if you look whether [34:11] it's on the fringe right or the fringe [34:13] left and the increasingly as you say Dan [34:15] not so fringe. It's very interesting to [34:17] see they will not follow through on [34:20] their insinuations. [34:23] If the George W. Bush administration had [34:25] decided that the best way to topple [34:28] Saddam Hussein was to kill 3,000 [34:30] American citizens. And amazingly, we [34:33] haven't heard [34:35] uh anyone come out and in on the secret [34:38] come out and say, "Hey, you know, I [34:41] mean, [34:41] >> right, there would have had to be tens [34:43] of thousands of people complicit in the [34:45] plot." [34:45] >> Ditto the claim that Tucker Carlson and [34:48] others have been trying to make of uh [34:51] the Israelis doing it. I mean, you know, [34:53] again, how many Israelis would have to [34:56] be in on the plot if they for some [34:58] reason decided that their closest ally [35:00] should be attacked and thousands of [35:02] citizens in order for something else to [35:05] happen. And and anyway, I mean, try [35:08] keeping any secret in Israel, [35:11] but that one, [35:14] it's possible someone's wife might have [35:15] said something, you know. [35:18] No, but I mean, I mean, this is absurd. [35:20] The real thing I just wanted to finish [35:22] on that is is there is something it's [35:24] not just about the the really evil [35:27] individuals who have been pushing this [35:30] particularly on the younger generation [35:31] who don't don't have a memory of this. [35:33] It's it's not just that there is a there [35:35] is clearly a cognitive problem in this [35:38] country of not educating people. I [35:40] include every western country in this. [35:42] Not bringing people up with the the the [35:45] skills of rationalism and reason to be [35:50] able to keep this putrid stuff from [35:53] festering anywhere near our body [35:55] politic. [35:57] You you've talked a lot in this [36:00] conversation about what's happening on [36:02] the left, but let's because a lot of [36:03] what you're talking about is happening [36:04] on the right and I would say the [36:07] platforms where it's happening have very [36:11] large audiences, alarmingly large [36:13] audiences [36:15] and let's also submit that these are [36:18] most of these audiences are patriotic [36:21] Americans who probably would not have [36:23] been saying these things or been open to [36:25] these ideas in the days after September [36:27] 11th or the weeks or the years after [36:29] September 11th, but they are now [36:32] >> why like what's going on? [36:34] >> A very brief summary of it. I I think in [36:38] in times of some ideological confusion [36:40] which you could say is essentially all [36:42] times again going back to Milanara I [36:45] mean nothing new under the sun and all [36:48] of that and Ecclesiastes it you you [36:51] can't say this is a period of unique [36:53] confusion but there are some things that [36:54] are going on that are special at the [36:56] moment and one of them it seems to me is [36:59] that in the in the midst of certain [37:02] critiques in our society people are [37:04] reaching out for antidotes to them and [37:07] seem in my estimation to be reaching for [37:10] the strongest drug available on the [37:12] market. Let me very quickly explain what [37:14] I mean by that. In the wake of the 2008 [37:17] financial crash, you will all have seen [37:19] and read as I did endless pieces about [37:22] about that. But just remember that the [37:25] number of pieces [37:27] on that occasion mainly from the left [37:29] that said things like after the global [37:32] financial crisis is it time to read [37:34] marks again. Do you remember all those [37:37] pieces? Every major publication carried [37:40] dozens of them. It was boom time for [37:42] pseudo Marxists. [37:44] And then of course the answer was the [37:48] same. Okay. A serious flaw was shown in [37:53] capitalism. There needed to be a [37:55] rectification of it. [37:57] Why would the rectification be KL Marx? [38:02] Like do you have anything else available [38:04] in the store? [38:07] Um and it's striking again you mentioned [38:10] the the letter to America bin Lan. Um I [38:14] think there is a very strong feeling at [38:16] the moment of that is being encouraged [38:19] by online of course but which is if you [38:21] have a criticism of the society that [38:23] you're in or something you don't like of [38:25] of it don't just reach for a minor [38:27] corrective reach for and mainline [38:31] something that is the strongest [38:33] ideological drug you can take. And our [38:35] best hope for that is that people [38:37] realize that these are the stretch [38:40] analogy the ideological equivalents of [38:43] fentinel. [38:44] And uh they're not happy drugs. And we [38:48] we we need you know in each of these [38:51] things whether it's in the defense of [38:52] capitalism and free market or the [38:54] defense of wars in which our young men [38:58] and women have laid down their lives and [39:00] all these things. We we need a stronger [39:02] and more robust defense of ourselves [39:06] essentially, you know, um based on the [39:08] fact that if we don't speak up for [39:09] ourselves, who will? When you were in [39:11] Israel after October 7th, 2023, you [39:16] talked about a lot. you wrote about you [39:17] wrote in your book uh quite movingly [39:20] about you kept referring to this choose [39:23] life these two words choose life that [39:26] that among the things that inspired you [39:28] most were these Israelis of all walks of [39:31] life but especially these young Israelis [39:33] that in everything they do including how [39:36] they responded to October 7th was this [39:39] protection of that principle of that [39:41] value of that idea that we choose and [39:43] celebrate and honor life Yes. [39:46] >> Contrast that with [39:49] what you see in America today and try [39:52] to, you know, address whether or not [39:55] that contrast is as stark and as grim as [39:59] some might see or whether or not you see [40:01] kind of like green shoots um that you [40:05] are optimistic about here in the United [40:07] States 25 years after September 11th. [40:10] Well, on on the biblical uh insistence [40:14] that we choose life, [40:17] um there are certainly [40:20] people in our society who seem not to [40:22] want to do that. You've got to be very [40:24] careful not to allow a culture of death [40:26] to come in from every imaginable [40:28] direction because it it's quite easy to [40:31] do in the name of compassion. It's been [40:33] my belief for some years that almost [40:35] every evil comes in the guise of [40:36] compassion. [40:38] very rarely comes in the guise of [40:40] declared evil. For instance, if you want [40:42] to kill the elderly, it's much easier to [40:45] call it maid or, you know, to say it's [40:49] assisted dying. [40:51] Uh it's much easier to [40:55] cloak it entirely in the language of [40:57] compassion. It's the same with with [41:00] right to life questions. It's much much [41:02] easier as we should saw in the Clancy [41:04] case. It's much easier to just portray [41:06] everything however wicked including [41:08] infanticide [41:10] in the language of compassion and in [41:13] fact you know it's sort of the best way [41:15] to do evil things. But I suppose what I [41:17] would say is on the on the bigger [41:20] question. [41:23] uh [41:25] the jihadists who attacked this city on [41:27] 9/11 [41:29] uh popularized for the first time in [41:33] many people's lives a phrase which many [41:36] of us heard too many times in the 25 [41:38] years that came after whether it was in [41:42] London or Paris or dozens of other [41:45] cities around the world which is that [41:46] they they taunted us in the west with [41:49] this extremely tough claim which is that [41:53] They said [41:54] we love death more than you love life. [41:58] And I said in on democracies and death [42:00] cults, I found this for 25 years [42:02] something which I had found an extremely [42:06] hard thing to think on. I I I believed [42:10] the jihadists when they said how much [42:12] they loved life because I saw them in [42:15] action in a number of places. I knew [42:18] that they were fanatical enough to want [42:19] to bring death not just to others but to [42:22] themselves. [42:23] But as I said in my last book, I also [42:26] think that there is an answer to that. [42:28] And the answer as I said in uh that I [42:31] saw in Israel in the face of Kamaz's [42:33] onslaught was to say there's nothing [42:37] wrong with loving life. You know, that's [42:40] one of the reasons we'll win. [42:43] And a friend I quoted earlier said after [42:46] 9/11, you know, that it was in a way it [42:48] was a day of enormous clarity because he [42:50] said, "Everything I loved was attacked [42:53] by everything I hated." [42:55] And as we come up to the the anniversary [42:58] itself, [43:00] there are news clips and things that we [43:03] didn't see at the time or hear at the [43:05] time or we've forgotten which are [43:07] reemerging. [43:09] Don't and again don't forget that we [43:11] many of the images many of were kept [43:14] from us for reasons of taste and [43:17] decency. [43:19] But if you look at the statements of the [43:21] hijackers of the terrorists, their lust [43:25] for death, their love for death is [43:28] undeniable. [43:30] But it's also worth remembering the flip [43:31] side of that, which is that in all of [43:34] the calls, all of the phone calls, all [43:37] the last phone calls, all the messages [43:39] sent out from the Twin Towers and [43:41] elsewhere on from Flight 93, [43:45] every one of them was about love. [43:49] Every single one. people who knew that [43:52] they were in their last moments, [43:54] choosing between burning to death or [43:56] throwing themselves [43:58] out into thin air. Every one of them [44:01] used their last moments to show love. [44:05] And it seems to me that that is one of [44:09] the most powerful distinctions that [44:11] could exist. And it's one that is [44:13] enormously to our benefit. In the free [44:16] press, there's this piece that was just [44:18] published that that recounts that as the [44:23] passengers force the plane down in [44:24] Pennsylvania. [44:26] And I never really focused on this, the [44:28] scene at the back of the plane [44:30] >> where all these Americans are sitting [44:32] there huddling and trying to figure out [44:34] what to do. And they're, as you say, [44:36] they're calling their loved ones and [44:38] then they're caucusing and voting. They [44:42] vote on what to do. It's an amazing [44:45] American civic lesson that there they [44:47] are figuring out how to confront these [44:49] terrorists. They decide to take a vote [44:50] on it at the back of the plane. [44:52] >> And there's one scene that I was a [44:54] detail I never knew which which someone [44:56] points out in the back of the plane that [44:58] if they wait a certain point they'll be [45:00] over rural area so that if they force [45:03] the plane down it will minimize [45:06] casualties when the plane goes down [45:08] rather than being in an urban area. [45:11] And they did all this knowing that they [45:13] were going to die. [45:14] >> Yes. And that to me is the ultimate [45:17] expression of choosing life. [45:21] I couldn't agree more. And as a and as a [45:23] society, again, societies need to choose [45:26] their heroes wisely. If you choose your [45:28] heroes to be people who are malcontent [45:31] and resentful, you will become a [45:32] malcontent and resentful society. If you [45:36] choose the heroes um that are worthy of [45:40] respect uh then you will orientate [45:42] yourself as a society better. And this [45:44] society not only has need of heroes but [45:47] has many heroes. [45:50] And um you know what you just said [45:52] reminds me of the biblical injunction [45:54] that love is strong as death. [45:58] Neither shall the seas drown it. [46:01] and the people you just described, not [46:05] just American heroes, but showed us a [46:07] way forward. [46:09] We will leave it there, Douglas. Thank [46:10] you as always. [46:12] >> Your voice. [46:24] If Call Me Back is where you come for [46:26] honest conversations about Israel and [46:28] the Jewish world, please hit subscribe [46:30] and also share it with a friend. And if [46:33] you missed our last episode, it's worth [46:35] going back for. See you next time.
