Transcript [00:02] Hello and welcome to Hadasa Magazine [00:05] presents a program and podcast for those [00:07] who love Hadasa Magazine and want more. [00:10] And for those who have never heard of [00:11] the magazine and are looking for [00:13] stimulating conversations with acclaimed [00:15] Jewish authors, thinkers, celebrities, [00:17] and culinary stars. I'm your host, Lisa [00:20] Hostin, the executive editor of Hadasa [00:23] Magazine. I'm delighted to be in [00:25] conversation today with Michael Kimmel, [00:27] whose book Playmakers: The Jewish [00:29] Entrepreneurs Who Created the Toy [00:31] Industry in America, takes a broad view [00:33] of the toy world, and Renee Rosen, who [00:36] takes a deep dive into one slice of it [00:39] with her Let's Call Her Barbie. At a [00:42] time of so much heaviness in the world, [00:43] it is a welcome change, fitting for [00:45] summertime, to focus on a lighter topic. [00:48] Lighter though it may be, there's much [00:50] more to this discussion than the fun [00:51] toys so many of us grew up with. The two [00:54] books by our guests that will inform the [00:56] bulk of our discussion, both terrific [00:58] reads that I highly recommend, also [01:01] provide tremendous insight not only into [01:03] the evolution of the toy industry and [01:05] the outside Jewish role, but also [01:08] include so much more about all kinds of [01:10] unexpected but related topics from the [01:12] development of child psychology to the [01:14] industrial growth of plastics. [01:17] Thank you all for joining us today. If [01:19] this is your first Hadasa Magazine [01:21] presents program, a special welcome. And [01:24] I hope you take the time to learn more [01:25] about Hadasa, the Women's Zionist [01:27] Organization of America, and the work [01:29] that the largest Jewish women's [01:31] organization in the United States does [01:33] to heal those in Israel through its two [01:35] worldclass hospitals in Jerusalem, and [01:38] through its youth aliyah villages for [01:39] atrisisk children, as well as through [01:42] its advocacy in the United States on [01:43] matters relating to Israel, [01:45] anti-semitism, women's empowerment, and [01:47] women's health, including reproductive [01:49] rights and conflict related sexual [01:51] violence. If you're not already a [01:54] member, please consider joining so you [01:55] can enjoy the magazine, which is free [01:57] with membership, as well as all the [01:59] wonderful programming the magazine and [02:01] the rest of Hadassa provides. And of [02:03] course, your donations are always [02:04] welcome and valued. Links for both [02:07] membership and contributions are in the [02:09] chat box, as are links to buy the books [02:11] written by our guests. We welcome [02:13] audience questions throughout the [02:15] conversation. Please be sure to write [02:17] them in the Q&A. And now to introduce [02:19] our guests more fully. Michael Kimmel is [02:22] a Sunni distinguished professor emeritus [02:24] of sociology and gender studies and [02:27] founder of the center for the study of [02:28] men and masculinities at Stonybrook [02:30] University and the author of many books [02:33] including most recently Playmakers the [02:35] Jewish entrepreneurs who created the toy [02:37] industry in America. Renee Rosen is a [02:40] USA Today best-selling author of 10 [02:42] novels, all historical fiction and [02:44] women's fiction, that are inspired by [02:47] iconic women, cultural movements, and [02:49] moments that changed the course of [02:50] American history. In addition to her [02:53] most recent book, Let's Call Barbie, her [02:56] titles include Fifth Avenue Glamour [02:58] Girl, The Social Graces, and Park Avenue [03:00] Summer. Renee lives in Chicago where she [03:02] is currently working on her next novel. [03:05] Welcome to you both. Thank you so much [03:07] for joining us today. [03:09] >> It's nice to be here. Thanks. [03:11] >> So, before we get into your books, I [03:13] want to ask a really basic question of [03:14] you both. What were your favorite toys [03:16] during your childhood? [03:18] >> Michael, you go first. [03:21] >> Um, well, I I had several. Um, not only [03:26] of course did I have a teddy bear, which [03:28] that's the sort of origin story of my [03:30] research and in my book. Um my [03:33] greatuncle um George Hanssburg invented [03:36] the pogo stick. So that was a favorite. [03:39] Um but I have to say probably my [03:41] favorite toy when I was a kid was my u [03:43] Mr. Machine. I just loved it. And it was [03:46] um it was created um by a first [03:49] generation Jew as were virtually all the [03:51] toys that any of us played with. Um and [03:54] Marvin Glass in Chicago. And so I guess [03:57] that was probably my favorite of all of [03:59] them. Although I did my fair share with [04:01] my dad of those models from Reale and [04:04] Aurora with the glue and the decals and [04:07] and and all. [04:09] >> Okay, Renee, is it obvious what yours [04:12] was or don't guess? [04:14] >> Yeah, I mean I think I became a writer [04:16] because of Barbie, you know, I did not [04:20] she Barbie taught me how to tell [04:23] stories. I, you know, would wouldn't it [04:27] wasn't even discussed. We just went to [04:28] our friend's house with our Barbie [04:30] cases, you know, and but I I will tell [04:33] you this, my friends did not like [04:34] playing Barbies with me because I always [04:37] had to have a narrative arc of what was [04:39] going on. And my friends just wanted to [04:41] put on the pretty clothes and have [04:42] Barbie and Ken kiss. I was like, "Wait, [04:44] wait, wait. Barbie and Ken are not going [04:46] to Paris. They're having financial [04:48] problems. Ken's got a gambling [04:49] [laughter] addiction. All that needs to [04:51] be resolved, you know." So, I w I was [04:54] very into the story. And how old were [04:56] you when you were having these? [04:57] >> Oh my god. I I was, you know, I was like [04:59] eight, nine, 10, you know, [05:02] >> very sophisticated. [05:03] >> I was always coming up with stories. [05:06] >> That's great. Michael, your book, as I [05:08] indicated, is so much more than about [05:10] the Jewish toy makers, which of course [05:11] is fascinating enough just their [05:13] stories, but as a true sociologist, you [05:15] delve deep into the societies and [05:17] circumstances from which they came and [05:19] what they came upon. from the poggrams [05:22] and the pale of settlement, the clash [05:23] between German and Eastern European Jews [05:25] in the early 20th century America, child [05:28] psychology, the rise and impact of the [05:30] boom baby boom generation and even how [05:32] plastics came to dominate industry in [05:34] the mid 20th century as we might [05:36] remember from that famous line in the [05:38] movie that you cite the graduate [05:40] >> right [05:40] >> and it turns out you have a family [05:42] connection to one of the biggest names [05:43] in toy making but you didn't even know [05:45] it. So, how did that revelation lead to [05:47] this massive study of the toy world that [05:49] you undertook? [05:51] >> Well, it was COVID and my retirement [05:53] which happened simultaneously in 20 [05:56] early 2020. Um, there had been a [05:59] photograph on my family's uh piano [06:01] growing up and it was of this old man [06:04] with Shirley Temple sitting on his lap [06:07] and I had no idea who this old man was [06:09] or why Shirley Temple was sitting on his [06:11] lap and it was autographed to my mom and [06:13] it was from Uncle Morris and Shirley [06:16] Temple. So, you know, when I was growing [06:18] up, I used to ask like, who is this guy [06:20] and why don't I why did I never meet [06:22] him? And it turned out that Morris had [06:25] created the teddy bear in 1902 and uh [06:29] founded the ideal toy company. Now, [06:32] before you get any ideas, let me just be [06:34] clear. He was my great great uncle, that [06:36] is to say, the brother of my [06:38] greatgrandfather. [06:39] Um, and when they arrived at Castle [06:42] Garden, which was the place you landed [06:44] before Ellis Island, uh, when they [06:46] landed at Castle Garden, they had a big [06:47] fight and they never spoke to each other [06:49] again. So, here was my great great uncle [06:53] who was the founder of the Ideal Toy [06:55] Company and Harris McDum, my [06:56] great-grandfather, who had nothing to do [06:58] with the toy industry at all. So, if you [07:01] have this idea that, you know, like [07:03] somehow I'm to the manor born and all [07:05] the those big boxes of that season's [07:08] toys came every Christmas, they did not. [07:11] Um, I grew up a comfortable middle-class [07:14] kid in uh in suburban New York, but [07:16] nothing like that. Um, but that was my [07:19] personal story. And so, I started that [07:21] to research that, like how did they get [07:23] here? Why did they why did they create [07:25] this teddy bear? Why did Mars go into [07:27] the toy business? Um, and that led me to [07:30] think about all of the other toy [07:32] companies that existed at the turn of [07:34] the 20th century. And it turns out that [07:37] all but one was founded by a first [07:40] generation Jew, by which I mean either [07:43] came as a young child or was born on the [07:46] Lower East Side in in complete poverty [07:48] in the tenementss. [07:50] And it turned out they were all, you [07:52] know, they all of them, Markx, Pressman, [07:54] Mattel, Hasbro, FNB dolls, Aaron B [07:58] dolls, Madam Alexander dolls, Lionel [07:59] trains, all of them. And so it so that's [08:03] how the book began to expand from what I [08:07] thought was going to be a nice tidy [08:08] little family memoir into a very big [08:12] broad canvas that just kept getting [08:13] bigger. As you mentioned, it included [08:16] comic strips uh um you know, Dick Tracy, [08:20] Joe Paluca, uh Popeye, um Lil Labner to [08:24] Comic Books, which was virtually a [08:26] Jewish ghetto. Um and uh and then [08:29] eventually the child psychologist who [08:31] theorized the whole thing, all of whom [08:32] were first generation Jews. [08:35] >> So fascinating. We're going to get back [08:36] to the teddy bear in a little bit, but [08:38] Renee, I want to turn to you. So, I owe [08:40] you a debt of gratitude, as was shown in [08:43] the slideshow, for the article that you [08:45] wrote for the magazine in July 2023 [08:47] around the time of the release of the [08:49] Barbie movie. And that article enabled [08:51] us to put Barbie on the cover of the [08:53] magazine along with her Jewish mother, [08:55] Ruth. Something I never thought I would [08:57] do or never thought I would want to do, [08:59] but here it was. Fabulous. Still one of [09:02] my favorite covers of all time. So let's [09:04] call her Barbie is such a great story in [09:06] which you explore the rise of one [09:08] particular company Mattel another one of [09:10] the giants and particularly the Jewish [09:12] mother who gave birth to Barbie and [09:14] other top selling toys. So tell us a [09:16] little about Ruth and Elliot Handler who [09:18] were children of Jewish immigrants and [09:20] the beginnings of their business. [09:22] >> Yeah. So, um, so Ruth and Elliott both [09:26] grew up in Denver and, um, Elliot, I'm [09:30] not sure if it was his, I can't remember [09:32] if it was his father grandfather who was [09:34] a rabbi and it was sort of understood [09:36] that he was going to go to rabbitical [09:38] school, but he was an artist. And, you [09:41] know, Ruth was the youngest of, some say [09:45] eight children, some say 10 children. [09:47] She was the youngest daughter and her [09:49] parents spoke only Yiddish. Um, and the [09:55] two met, as I said, in Denver. And, um, [10:00] Ruth's mother, and this was really [10:02] something that that really shaped Ruth [10:04] Handler. Her mother, having had either [10:07] eight or 10 children, was exhausted by [10:09] the time Ruth came along. and she gave [10:13] her daughter to her eldest daughter [10:16] Sarah to raise. And um you know that [10:23] even though Ruth sort of glosses over it [10:26] in her memoir um like oh it was fine. It [10:29] was fine. Um you know that had to have [10:31] left a huge scar for her. Uh and she [10:34] falls in love with Elliot and her sister [10:38] steps in and basically says no he's not [10:40] good enough for you. you know, you're [10:41] you're gonna starve. He's a starving [10:43] artist. You're gonna starve. So, they go [10:45] out to California. Well, actually, Sarah [10:48] sends Ruth to LA to stay with a a [10:52] relative. And little do they know that [10:55] Elliot follows Ruth out there. Um, but [10:59] they were they were absolute opposites [11:01] in the sense that, you know, Elliot was [11:04] very mildmannered. [11:06] Um, he was an introvert. He was an [11:08] artist. Ruth. They called her Ruthless [11:11] for a reason. She was very petite, but [11:13] what she lacked in in height, she made [11:15] up for in personality. And she was in [11:18] the room, you knew it. And [11:21] she uh her husband was sort of fooling [11:24] around with some plastics, once again, [11:26] plastics, and making chachkis. And Ruth [11:29] had gotten a job at Paramont Studios as [11:33] a secretary. She comes home one day and [11:35] he and his friend um Harold Matson are [11:38] in the garage making these little [11:41] bookends and uh um uh what do you call [11:44] them that hold books together I'm [11:47] spacing out [11:49] >> anyway making vases and and all this [11:52] stuff out of plastic and Ruth comes home [11:54] and she says I could sell those those [11:57] are and she does and that's how they end [11:59] up with the company and when they had to [12:01] name it they took Harold old Matson's [12:04] name, Matt and Elliot. Matt tell that's [12:08] where he got Nutell from. Even though [12:10] Ruth was the driving force behind it, [12:13] you know, her name wasn't in the [12:14] company. [12:15] >> Can I Didn't Didn't Ruth and Elliot [12:17] actually meet at a Jewish dance? They [12:20] had dance in Denver. [12:22] >> At a benth dance. [12:24] >> Yeah. And he had to borrow five cents to [12:27] get back in so he could ask her to [12:30] dance. And it was truly it was love at [12:32] first sight for them. [12:34] >> That's so interesting. So I want to ask [12:37] each of you to focus on some of the big [12:38] toys that many of us depending on our [12:40] age knew and loved and that continue to [12:42] be consumed by by millions of children. [12:45] So Michael, I want to go back to the [12:46] teddy bear because that, you know, [12:48] creation and the connection to your [12:51] great uncle and its birthed at a candy [12:53] store in Brooklyn, if I'm not mistaken, [12:55] what is it's I think a lot of people [12:57] know. I knew that it was named after [12:59] Teddy Roosevelt, but what's the origin [13:01] story there? [13:02] >> Okay, the origin story is that um in [13:05] 1902, Roosevelt had gone to um to [13:08] Mississippi to settle a land dispute. [13:11] Mississippi and Louisiana were having a [13:12] dispute over a border that included a [13:14] river. And after that was over, he was [13:17] kind of grumpy and tired. And so he [13:19] said, "I want to go hunt bears in [13:20] Mississippi." And so they said, "Okay, [13:23] great." Uh they organized the bear hunt. [13:26] um three days in and they hadn't seen a [13:28] bear and he was getting kind of pi [13:30] pissed off about this. So he um so they [13:33] finally captured this like scraggly old [13:36] bear and tied it to a tree and said, [13:38] "President Roosevelt, come here. You can [13:40] you can kill this bear." And he took one [13:42] look at it. He said, "No, no, I'm not [13:44] going to kill that." Now, this story [13:47] would have ended there and there would [13:48] have been no teddy bear had not Clifford [13:50] Bryman been along on this trip. Clifford [13:52] Bryman was the cartoonist for the [13:54] Washington Post. Now Morris owned a [13:57] candy store, read all the newspapers. He [13:59] had been a rabbitical student prior to [14:02] coming here and um and he read he saw [14:05] this cartoon and he thought to himself, [14:07] "This is adorable. Don't ask. I have no [14:10] idea why he completely glombmed on to [14:12] this cartoon, but he said the star would [14:14] would never have treated people so well [14:17] as as Teddy Roosevelt." He he became [14:19] infatuated with it. He said to his wife, [14:22] "Um, Rose, let's go down to the [14:24] basement, take some scraps of material, [14:26] let's make a little model of this bear [14:28] and put it in the window of the candy [14:30] store." Which they did. And people came [14:32] by and they said, "That's really cool. [14:34] What is that? We want one." And so, um, [14:38] Morris and Rose said, "Well, we don't [14:40] know. We we're calling it Teddy's Bear [14:42] with the with the apostrophe s." And [14:44] people said, "We want it." And we want [14:47] one. So Ruth Rose, Rose Rose and and uh [14:50] Morris went, you know, started hiring a [14:52] couple of local yeshiva bookers and they [14:54] made because who doesn't know tailoring? [14:56] So they all started making these little [14:58] dolls. They put them in the window. They [14:59] sold them and it was it was quite it, [15:01] you know, it was quite lucrative. And so [15:03] Morris, now this is the part that's [15:04] apocryphal, I must admit. We've never [15:06] seen this letter, but apparently Morris [15:09] wrote to President Roosevelt and asked [15:13] him permission to call it a teddy bear. [15:15] Roosevelt apparently wrote back um it it [15:19] was in Morris's memoirs, but I've never [15:21] seen the document that he said, "I don't [15:23] know what my name will do in the bear [15:25] business, but you're welcome to use it." [15:27] And so they created the teddy bear. 1902 [15:30] was when it was created. 1904 was when [15:33] they started marketing it and created [15:35] the Ideal Toy Company. Now, the the [15:37] thing that's interesting about this [15:39] story um is if you grew up anywhere but [15:41] the United States, this is not the story [15:43] you would hear about the origin of the [15:44] teddy bear. You would hear that it was [15:46] invented by Richard Sty in Germany. Um [15:50] if you look at the sty bear and the [15:52] teddy bear, which you put in your [15:54] opening montage, um that was a Mars [15:58] bear. And if you could look at it [15:59] carefully, you can see it's seated. It's [16:01] sad looking. It needs love. Whereas the [16:05] stif bear is standing up very straight. [16:08] Um, no expression on its face at all. [16:10] The the the the ideal bear has a little [16:12] frown. It really needs somebody to love [16:14] it. Um, I'm tempted to say it's it's [16:17] even looks Jewish. In any case, that [16:20] that is in the Smithsonian. That that [16:22] original bear is in the Smithsonian in [16:25] the Hall of the Presidents next to [16:26] Roosevelt's um material. Uh, so that's [16:29] the origin of the story. and they [16:31] eventually um began to produce it. Um [16:35] the styear was produced around the same [16:37] time. So there's you know you know two [16:39] great idea happened twice in the same at [16:42] the same time period and that's the [16:44] origin of the story and they went on [16:46] mostly um Ideal was best known for [16:49] making dolls and uh you know in the way [16:51] that the doll industry worked in the US [16:53] you had to have a new doll every year [16:56] for the Christmas season. About 85% of [16:59] all toys are sold between Thanksgiving [17:01] and Christmas. So, guess who invented [17:04] the Macy's Thanksgiving break parade? [17:06] The Jewish the the Jewish department [17:09] stores, of course. Gimbals and Macy's [17:11] and FAO Schwarz. [17:14] >> Oh, interesting. And I think you say [17:16] that even though there's some question [17:17] about whether you know it was the first [17:20] teddy bear, the Smithsonian indicates [17:22] that it really was from your [17:24] >> The official story is the Smithsonians. [17:26] Yeah. [17:26] >> Right. Okay. Well, we'll we'll believe [17:28] them. So, Renee, of course, we want to [17:30] hear from you about Barbie's story, [17:32] right? It might come as a big surprise [17:34] to some when you describe her German, [17:37] perhaps not so savory, uh, origins. Tell [17:41] us that story. [17:42] >> Yeah. Um, well, first we have to [17:44] understand though why Ruth wanted to [17:47] create a doll like Barbie. She [17:50] recognized that there was a huge gap, [17:53] gender gap in the toy market. She had [17:55] two children, and we can circle back to [17:58] her children later, but her son had toy [18:02] trucks, he had toy soldiers, he had [18:04] guns, he had all kinds of toys to choose [18:07] from. What did her daughter have? Baby [18:09] dolls. And Ruth wanted to create a doll [18:13] that would empower young girls, that you [18:16] could be anything, you know, that there [18:18] were no limits to what you could do. So, [18:21] fast forward, but she's not a designer, [18:23] right? She's not a toy designer, but [18:25] she's got this idea. She and her family [18:28] are in Europe on a vacation and she sees [18:32] a doll in a souvenir shop window and her [18:37] name is Build Lily. And Build Lily has [18:41] breasts and she is a full figure doll [18:44] and she is for men. She's a prostitute [18:48] novelty gag doll based on a comic strip [18:51] character named Build Lily. And she was [18:55] never intended for little girls. She was [18:58] a gag gift. She was for bachelors and [19:00] all that. Well, Ruth sees the doll and [19:03] says, "Oh my god, this is exactly what [19:05] I'm talking about." So, she gets two of [19:07] the dolls. She, you know, runs over to [19:10] Elliot and says, "Elliot, Elliot, this [19:12] is a doll I want to make." And he says, [19:14] "You're He thinks she's kidding." He's [19:16] like, "You're crazy. You cannot give a [19:17] little girl a doll with breasts. It's [19:19] indecent." And Ruth being Ruth [19:23] persisted. But when she goes back to [19:26] Mattel with Build Lily, and I would [19:28] encourage people to Google build Lily [19:30] because it she that's Barbie's DNA. You [19:34] know, she looks exactly like Barbie. And [19:37] when she goes into the boardroom, and [19:39] she is the only woman in the boardroom [19:41] among all these Ivy League engineers and [19:44] designers, she says, "Gentlemen, you [19:46] want into the lucrative doll market? [19:49] Here's our way in." And their reaction [19:51] is exactly the same as Elliot's. You [19:53] know, you've got to be kidding. It's [19:54] indecent. And so, she it was an uphill [19:57] battle for her with Barbie from the [19:59] get-go. [20:01] C [20:01] >> May I just add one thing to that? Um [20:04] Barbie comes out in 1959. Um Mat uh [20:09] ideal had considered in 1956 they had [20:13] approached Marilyn Monroe about doing a [20:15] Marilyn Monroe doll and licensing her [20:18] because they also a designer at Ideal [20:21] thought, yeah, you know, a doll that's [20:23] not just a baby that you have to, you [20:26] know, shampoo her hair or that wets or [20:28] that you give a bottle to. and the the [20:32] um the board at at Ideal laughed laughed [20:35] him out of the room, said there's no way [20:37] we could possibly ever market a doll [20:40] that looks like Marilyn Monroe to young [20:42] girls. It would be indecent. And so they [20:44] passed on the idea. And of course, three [20:47] years later, Barbie was born and is [20:49] still the bestselling toy in history. [20:52] >> Yeah. And you know, and Michael, um it [20:55] was was it Madame Alexander? I mean, [20:58] there were other adult dolls, but they [21:01] did not look Barbie was a teenage [21:05] fashion model, and you know, she was all [21:07] about the clothes. But, um, there were [21:10] there were several other dolls that [21:13] attempted to be adult dolls, but they [21:15] just still sort of had a baby doll body, [21:18] >> right? [21:19] >> Kind of odd. [21:19] >> They were they they they were um they [21:22] were not genetically correct. [21:25] [laughter] [21:25] >> Should argue Barbie wasn't either. You [21:27] should you should Google as as Renee [21:29] says, you should Google build Lily. She [21:31] was she was sassy. Yeah. [21:33] >> And that was she she had an edge to her. [21:36] In the comic strips, someone, you know, [21:38] she would be at a beach wearing a [21:39] two-piece bathing suit, which is really [21:41] quite quite risque. And a policeman [21:44] would come over and said, "I'm sorry. At [21:46] this beach, you can only wear a one [21:48] piece bathing suit." And Bill Lily says, [21:50] "Okay, which part would you like me to [21:51] take off?" Right? I mean, she was she [21:54] was sassy and very and in-your-face and [21:57] a kind of in a way. I mean, although she [22:00] was sold as a kind of sexy doll to men, [22:03] she was proto feminist in the same way [22:05] that Barbie was, I think. [22:07] >> Yeah. [22:07] >> Well, I actually want to get to that to [22:09] that point because we all know people [22:11] who love Barbie and we know people who [22:13] hated Barbie. And as you said, she was a [22:16] fashion model. She had this perfect body [22:18] that, you know, none of us could begin [22:19] to replicate or very few of us. But she [22:22] was claimed by feminists, touted as a [22:25] feminist. I wouldn't say claimed, but [22:27] she was touted as a feminist and derided [22:29] by many feminists. So Renee, can you [22:31] talk about how central that debate was [22:34] as she landed in the market and was this [22:37] an issue that people at Mattel cared [22:39] about? [22:40] >> Well, I mean, there's so many facets to [22:43] that question. Um, you know, when they [22:45] were trying to figure out how to market [22:48] Barbie, they did uh these living [22:50] laboratories, but what we would consider [22:52] a focus group today, and they [22:54] interviewed a bunch of little girls, and [22:56] they all loved Barbie. Oh, Barbie's [22:59] wonderful. Then they interview the [23:01] mothers, and the mothers are appalled, [23:04] you know, oh my god, she's a hussy. I [23:06] wouldn't leave the house dressed like [23:08] that. Blah blah blah blah. No way would [23:10] I give my daughter this doll. Except all [23:13] the mothers did agree that, you know, [23:17] their daughters all said, "Oh, mommy, [23:19] Barbie is so well groomed and she's so [23:22] well put together." And, you know, it's [23:24] the 1950s. It's late 1950s, and the [23:27] mothers are lamenting, "I can't get my [23:29] daughter to wash her face, let alone put [23:31] on a dress, comb her hair. How am I ever [23:33] going to get her a man? You know, I'll [23:36] never be able to marry her off." And [23:37] that was the light bulb moment for Ruth [23:39] when she realized that the way to the [23:42] mothers is buy your daughter a Barbie, [23:45] she will show your daughter how to [23:47] accessorize herself and therefore she [23:49] will get a man, [23:50] >> you know. And but Ruth was very adamant [23:55] that Barbie will never get married, [23:58] right? [23:58] >> She's had a million wedding dresses, but [24:01] Ken is still waiting at the altar for [24:03] her. You know, she's never taken that [24:05] walk. And [24:06] >> it's a good thing cuz Ken's her brother. [24:09] >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. And you know that [24:11] when I found that out, I'm like, has [24:13] anybody written a novel about this? You [24:15] know, that her daughter is Barbara and [24:18] her son is Ken, right? [24:21] >> You know, big ick factor there. Big big [24:23] ick factor. And as you indicate in the [24:25] book, that was actually a huge [24:28] uh process to find the name, right? It [24:30] took what like over a year to kind of [24:32] come up with a name and then suddenly [24:34] >> to call it the Barbara doll. You know [24:37] they had all these various and the thing [24:40] that's interesting the head engineer at [24:42] Mattel was a gentleman named Jack Ryan [24:45] >> who was also married to a woman named [24:48] Barbie. And so you had Ruth's daughter [24:51] that was Barbie and Jack's wife. And you [24:54] know if Ruth was the mother of Barbie [24:56] then Jack Ryan was certainly the father [24:58] of Barbie. We wouldn't have had Barbie [25:00] without both of them. So, who named her? [25:03] >> It's interesting. [25:04] >> Right. Right. So, I'm I'm intrigued by [25:06] the fashion element. Right. And you [25:08] actually talk about u meeting one of the [25:11] top design. I mean, they hired top [25:13] designers who like made these, you know, [25:16] magnificent little tiny clothes. And you [25:19] met one of them who had worked there who [25:21] not only revealed a lot about the [25:23] clothing element, but also what was [25:25] going on behind the scenes there. Tell [25:27] us about that. [25:27] >> Yeah. um meeting Carol Spencer, that was [25:29] sort of the research jackpot for me. Um [25:33] she was 90 years old when I met her. [25:35] She's still going strong. Um she had [25:38] started at Mattel in 1963. So she was [25:42] worked very closely with Elliot and Ruth [25:45] and and her boss Charlotte Johnson who [25:47] was a fashion designer and uh Carol was [25:51] also a designer. and she told me how [25:54] they had to go through all the steps [25:56] they had to go through to dress Barbie [25:59] and that Barbie's measurements which I [26:02] mean let's she's come under attack [26:04] constantly 39 in bust 18inch waist and [26:08] 33 in hips but it was not some [26:12] misogynistic fantasy [26:14] Barbie's [26:16] uh measurements for the most part were [26:18] dictated by the wardrobe [26:20] >> because They if Barbie was 16 the scale [26:24] of a real woman, there was no such thing [26:27] as 16 the thickness of fabric. So fabric [26:30] was fabric was fabric. And they're [26:32] making these very intricate designs with [26:35] waistbands and little zippers and hooks [26:37] and I all that was adding bulk to [26:40] Barbie. So unless she had an abnormally [26:42] thin waist, those clothes she would not [26:45] have had that hourglass figure when she [26:47] was dressed. Now I cannot speak to the [26:49] 39 in bust line. I think that was all [26:51] Jack Ryan. [26:53] >> Makes sense, right? [26:54] >> But let me let me add something to this [26:56] because I think it's it's important. Um [26:58] Barbie takes this to a Mattel takes this [27:00] to an entirely different level. Um [27:03] Morris McDum when he was making his [27:05] dolls and particularly the Shirley [27:07] Temple doll. What he did was he licensed [27:09] with Shirley Temple um that every time [27:12] she would put out a new movie, they [27:14] would put out a new outfit. they didn't [27:16] need because they had invented [27:18] unbreakable uh uh rubber and plastic for [27:22] her uh for her face. Um prior to that [27:24] the dolls were had been porcelain and [27:26] bisque and they were very fragile. Um [27:29] but they but he licensed it and he [27:31] realized that there was a a big afterale [27:34] market in the clothing. Barbie it is [27:37] said is the largest women's clothing [27:39] manufacturer in the world. [27:41] >> Um [27:42] >> well it was the razor blade theory [27:44] right? [27:44] >> Yeah. You know, and Ruth inherently knew [27:47] that that the money that they were going [27:49] to make on this doll was not in the sale [27:51] of Barbie. It was her wardrobe. Whereas [27:53] Build Lily, remember that you [27:55] [clears throat] got each doll had their [27:57] own outfit. [27:58] >> She's like, "Well, what if I want that [27:59] outfit?" Well, then you have to buy that [28:01] doll. [28:01] >> Uhhuh. Right. [28:03] >> I'm just saying. So, one last question [28:05] about Barbie, and that is you started [28:07] writing your book, Renee, before the [28:09] blockbuster Barbie movie in 2023 came [28:12] out, but it was published afterwards. [28:13] So, how did the movie impact the book? [28:16] >> It didn't impact the writing at all. Um, [28:19] I was about threequarters of the way [28:21] through. [28:22] >> Uh, and then all the movie hype started. [28:27] And if you remember, they weren't [28:29] showing their cards at all. I had no [28:32] idea. I I was freaking out. Um, I [28:36] remember many conversations with my [28:38] agent, my editor, you know, do we try [28:40] and rush the book out? What do we do [28:42] here? And I'm glad that we waited [28:44] because it was important to, you know, [28:46] get it right. But what what it did [28:48] really influence was the marketing. [28:51] >> Um, originally I had a different title. [28:55] It was suddenly, you know, it's not [28:57] going to be the doll makers. We need [28:58] Barbie in the title and you're getting a [29:01] hot pink cover. [laughter] So, um, you [29:05] know, and it just, uh, that was what it [29:07] affected more than anything. [29:09] >> Yeah. [29:10] >> Interesting. Let me Can I ask Renee a [29:13] question? [29:13] >> Sure. Go ahead. [29:14] >> Um, we know that Ruth and Elliot were [29:16] Jewish, but is Barbie Jewish? And my [29:20] reason for asking is because her [29:21] backstory suggests a tremendous amount [29:24] of anti-semitism and Jewish self-hatred [29:27] on the part of Ruth and and Elliot. Her [29:30] backstory is that her name is is Barbara [29:33] Millisent Roberts and she comes from [29:35] Willow, Wisconsin, [29:38] and she's absolutely a wasp. [29:41] So, how do they how do they reconcile [29:44] their Jewishness with Barbie's [29:46] non-Jewishness? And I asked this because [29:49] Morris's son, you know, this is this is [29:52] an assimilationist story in here, as [29:54] well as confronting anti-semitism. [29:56] Morris's son, I mean, it doesn't get [29:58] more assimilationist than this. His son [30:01] was named Benjamin Franklin Mictum, [30:04] right? I mean, they're so desperate to [30:06] fit in, to find a home, to find a place. [30:09] So, so my So, it's a kind of I I it's a [30:12] tease to say, is she Jewish? But, but [30:15] you know that you know what I'm asking [30:16] about her backstory? [30:18] >> Well, I I think one thing that was very [30:22] important to Ruth um was that Barbie [30:26] could be relatable to everyone. If you [30:29] look back at the very first Barbies, [30:32] they were certainly attractive, but they [30:34] were not Barbie got much more glamorous [30:36] and beautiful through the years. She [30:38] didn't want Barbie to be that beautiful. [30:41] Attractive, yes, but a doll that every [30:45] child could relate to. So, I think the [30:49] fact that her background is about as [30:52] generic really, you know, the middle of [30:55] the Midwest, [30:55] >> Clark Kent. [30:56] >> Yeah. You know, I mean, so that there [30:59] was no real attachment to that. Um, I [31:02] don't think it was, [31:04] you know, that we don't want to uh [31:09] reflect anything about Judaism in it. I [31:11] think it was more about being [31:13] allincclusive, [31:14] you know, and if you look at the dolls [31:16] that Mattel has continued to produce, [31:19] you know, they have a they literally [31:23] have a doll with almost every body [31:25] shape. M [31:27] >> um they have, you know, they have a [31:30] they've just really gone as far as they [31:33] possibly can to make sure that there is [31:36] a doll for every child out there. [31:38] >> So that that's kind of where I think [31:41] it's at. [31:41] >> Yeah. I was just I was just going to [31:44] say, Michael, you know, I think that you [31:46] raised this issue a lot in your book and [31:47] so talk a little bit more about this [31:49] assimilationist story because as you [31:51] said, Ben Mictum's name is reflective of [31:55] that as well. So this was not uncommon, [31:58] >> right? And and the the Barbie story has [32:00] that also. I mean, the Seagull and [32:03] Shuster created Superman and they made [32:06] him not a Jewish boy from Cleveland, but [32:09] a generic farm boy from Kansas. Um, [32:13] there was an effort to kind of try to [32:15] make it mainstream American. As you say, [32:17] Renee, I think it's really important [32:18] that in a way she's glamorous, but in [32:21] another way she's generic. She's [32:24] American. and so is Superman. Clark Kent [32:27] is as American as they get. Um, and I [32:30] think there is there is some self-hatred [32:32] in not proclaiming their Jewishness. A [32:35] lot of the superheroes created by the [32:37] comic book guys were all, you know, they [32:39] all wrestled with it. They hated the [32:41] Nazis, but they didn't fully claim their [32:44] Jewishness until Jack Kirby created the [32:46] Thing who's explicitly Jewish. [32:49] >> And Michael, where where would you put [32:51] GI Joe in all of that? Because [32:54] >> again, G.I. Joe is is I think G.I. Joe [32:57] belongs in a kind of conversation about [32:59] gender in a way, which is to say, um, [33:02] initially when Jerry Reiner created G.I. [33:04] Joe, he created it for Ideal. And again, [33:07] Ideal missed this one also. They said, [33:10] "Nah, boys aren't going to play with [33:11] dolls even if they're 11 in tall." And, [33:14] you know, they just won't do it. And so, [33:16] Reiner said, "Well, do you mind if I [33:18] take it somewhere else?" And and and Ben [33:20] said, "Oh, sure. Go ahead." He took it [33:22] to Hasbro and Hasbro created G.I. Joe. [33:26] Uh, so um, Ideal missed the boat the [33:29] boat on quite a few quite a few toys, I [33:32] have to say. Um, but that but I think [33:35] that there is there is a wrestling with [33:38] anti-semitism and the desire for [33:40] assimilation that goes through all of [33:43] the the children's books and the um and [33:46] the comic books. Um, remember comic book [33:48] authors, the comic book artists did not [33:51] want to go into comic books. They wanted [33:53] to go into advertising. But in the 1930s [33:56] and 40s, advertising was a very white [33:59] shoe, very anti-semitic profession in [34:01] New York. So these guys, these artists, [34:03] these young boys with their would bring [34:05] their portfolio to the advertising [34:08] agency and the ad agency would say, "I'm [34:10] sorry, we already have our our quota of [34:12] Jews." Which usually meant zero. So what [34:15] did they do with their artistic talent? [34:17] They went to the pulps. [34:19] >> So So there's always this story, this [34:21] running story of confronting [34:23] anti-semitism, a desire for assimilation [34:27] that that really lies behind a lot of [34:30] these the these these creations, I [34:32] think. [34:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. [34:33] >> And not only the creations, it seems [34:35] just getting at the question of why they [34:38] went into this business to the [34:39] beginning. Like why did they dominate [34:41] this business? You know, you talk about [34:42] the Jewish influence extending beyond [34:44] toys to comic books, as you mentioned, [34:46] children's literature, movies, child [34:48] psychology. You look at them all through [34:51] the prism of ethnicity and immigration. [34:53] So, what was going on in the minds and [34:55] what opportunities were there or weren't [34:57] there that were available to these [34:59] Jewish immigrants and in some cases [35:00] their children? Like, why is it that so [35:02] many Jews ended up in these in these [35:04] areas? [35:05] >> This is the question that I pose to [35:06] myself. After all, I'm a sociologist. [35:08] So, I want to know why them, why then? [35:12] Why there? Um, you know, why was it in [35:15] New York or in the US at that particular [35:17] moment at the turn of the 20th century? [35:20] And why these Jews? And I came up with [35:22] several different answers. One of the [35:23] answers, of course, is, and this relates [35:26] in a way to the Barbie story. One is the [35:29] technology, the ability to create and [35:31] mass-produce toys, um, which didn't [35:33] exist before in the 19th century. Most [35:35] toys in America were either imported [35:37] from Germany or they were handmade. But [35:40] the [35:41] >> Michael, did you find though that they [35:43] were just starting to do everything [35:45] overseas for economics? [35:47] >> Usually all the all the dolls and toys [35:50] were were imported from Germany if they [35:51] weren't like, you know, rag dolls or or [35:54] corn husk dolls and things like that. Um [35:58] so so there's the technological change [36:00] but then most important at the turn of [36:02] the 20th century there were there was a [36:05] progressive movement that was beginning [36:07] in the United States around John Dwey [36:09] and at Colombia and the the prevail and [36:12] and it basically led to compulsory [36:15] education and and and an effort to uh [36:19] end child labor. Um, so child labor [36:22] restrictions, compulsory education [36:24] created a kind of time zone that was [36:27] called childhood that wasn't about [36:30] working. Um, and children were were seen [36:34] not as necessarily economic assets but [36:37] also as creatures of their own. Now the [36:40] child rearing literature, and this is [36:42] where I think the Jews come in, the [36:43] child rearing literature at the turn of [36:45] the 20th century would horrify you [36:47] today. Um, they said things like, "If [36:50] your baby wakes up and is crying uh in [36:53] the middle of the night, go in and give [36:54] them a good spanking and they'll stop." [36:57] Or, "Don't let your baby look at [37:00] pictures of ugly people. [37:04] Don't ask." Or the most famous before [37:07] Benjamin Spock, the most famous child [37:09] rearing expert in the United States was [37:11] John Watson. and his in his book in 1928 [37:15] uh about raising babies basically said [37:17] don't ever hug or kiss your child if you [37:20] have to before they go to bed you can [37:22] kiss them on the head and then shake [37:24] their hand in the morning when they wake [37:26] up but basically show no affection and [37:28] Jews these these Yiddish-sp speakaking [37:30] Jews from the pale of settlement come [37:33] here and they had the exact same [37:34] reaction that Renee just had you kidding [37:38] the children are wonderful they're [37:40] Yiddish anakas they're created They're [37:42] loving. They're they're curious. We have [37:44] to create environments for them. So the [37:47] the Jew these Yiddishspeaking Jews who [37:50] came from the the pale of settlement had [37:53] a very different idea of children. And [37:55] it is not a surprise that these that [37:58] these Yiddish-speaking Jews were the [37:59] ones who completely dominated the the [38:02] attendance in kindergartens and [38:04] Montasauri schools in the first two [38:06] decades of the 20th century. Um so they [38:08] had a very different idea of childhood. [38:10] So that plus the the creation of the [38:13] space of childhood not working you know [38:17] play is the business of childhood as one [38:19] child of reformer said. So there you [38:23] have you have the sort of material you [38:26] have the material base of this. Then you [38:29] have a century of child rearing experts, [38:32] child psychologists, all of whom were [38:35] also first generation Jews including [38:38] Maslo and Ericson and Brophen Brener and [38:41] Colberg and Carol Gilligan, Nay Carol [38:44] Freriedman and and Haim Gennat uh all of [38:47] them firstgen Jews including of course [38:50] the dean of all child psychology Eric [38:53] Ericson that's not obviously his real [38:55] name you know complete assimil [38:58] assimilationist model, right, Lisa? [39:00] Eric, son of Eric, like I've given birth [39:02] to myself. His real name was Eric [39:04] Hamburger. I mean, these so the again an [39:07] assimilationist story. So they theorized [39:10] this whole idea of children as as [39:13] inquiring and curious and they should be [39:15] nurtured and developed. And that clashed [39:18] with the traditional Protestant 19th [39:21] century childbearing model which was [39:23] children are willful and the goal of [39:25] childbearing is to break their will. [39:28] easy to choose. Not for us. [39:30] >> So that whole phenomenon in terms of the [39:32] psychological thinking, but how is it [39:35] that these individuals decided, okay, [39:37] it's the toy industry that we're going [39:39] to that we're going to jump into? [39:41] >> L a lot of it was luck. Um, you know, [39:44] they, you know, from from teddy bears to [39:48] uh to dolls. I mean, Ideal was best [39:50] known for dolls. other companies came in [39:52] uh as as I mentioned R&B R FNB um uh [39:57] Louis Marx basically was your classic uh [40:00] classic toy you know Jewish toy maker [40:03] you you create a toy at one company he [40:06] would make more of it and underell you [40:08] uh no matter what you made he would sell [40:10] it cheaper um and uh and Lionel trained [40:13] Lionel Cohen uh who changed his name to [40:16] Lionel Cowan just so you wouldn't get [40:18] the wrong idea or get the right idea I [40:20] suppose Um, so you know, it was one of [40:23] those niches and of course the German [40:25] Jews who had come in the middle of the [40:28] 19th century, remember they were much [40:30] more prosperous, much more middle class, [40:32] much wealthier. And what did those [40:34] German Jews from the in the mid- 19th [40:36] century do? They created all the [40:38] department stores. So the so these [40:40] Yiddish Jews who created the toys [40:43] suddenly had a place to sell them. [40:48] >> So interesting. So interesting. Tell us [40:50] the story about Curious George. I think [40:52] a lot of people may know but not [40:54] everybody and it's such an important [40:55] story a little bit later, you know, kind [40:57] of a escape from from Nazi land. [41:02] This is a beautiful story and it's part [41:04] of a it's part of a way in which I feel [41:06] that um you know learning the Jewish [41:10] origins. the the the New York Public [41:12] Library did um did a list in 2005 of the [41:17] 100 most important children's books of [41:19] the 20th century and 42 of them were [41:22] written by first generation Jews [41:25] >> which is way disproportionate right so I [41:28] so I started asking that question also [41:31] and I'll tell you the curious George [41:32] story because what I feel like is that [41:35] this is the backstory of so many of the [41:38] children's books that were read to me as [41:40] a child. One of my favorites was Caps [41:42] for Sale, for example. I just loved that [41:44] book. And first generation Jew and um [41:48] and Ezra Jack Keats's book Snowy Day, [41:51] which was so revolutionary because it it [41:53] it it foregrounds a little black boy, [41:56] but it's not about race. It's about a [41:59] snowy day and a little boy walking [42:00] through his neighborhood. The story of [42:02] Curious George is that Hans and [42:04] Margaretta Ray were living in Paris in [42:07] in June of 1940. [42:10] And in June of 1940, the German the [42:13] Nazis were mar were coming into France. [42:16] France having surrendered, they were [42:17] marchering through from the north and [42:20] the east through Belgium through Le down [42:24] toward Paris. And everyone has always [42:26] seen those amazing photographs of the [42:29] German troops marching up the Schol. [42:32] Well, the night before that photograph, [42:34] Hans and Margaret Array, Jews living in [42:37] Paris, um said, "We better get out of [42:40] here." So, they f they put together two [42:42] bicycles from random parts and they [42:44] bicycled south and west. Sorry. They [42:47] bicycled south and west out of Paris [42:50] down through um down through the [42:53] Pyrenees to Spain and eventually got to [42:55] Lisbon, took a boat to to New York. And [42:59] in their backpack [43:01] was um a little a story about a little [43:04] monkey called Fifi. [43:06] And they got here and they brought it to [43:08] an editor who they had had some contact [43:10] with earlier. And the editor said, "I [43:12] don't think Fifi is going to fly." So [43:15] they came up with Curious George. And [43:16] that's his backstory. Curious George's [43:19] backstory is fleeing the Nazis marching [43:22] into Paris. And so many of the [43:24] children's books that we knew and loved [43:26] when we were children have that kind of [43:29] story. Did you know that Eloise was [43:31] Jewish? I mean, there doesn't get to be [43:33] a n more non-Jewish character than the [43:36] person who lives on the 33rd floor of [43:38] the of the Plaza Hotel and rather hates [43:42] to to take her bath. I mean, it's just [43:45] amazing. the backstory of so many of [43:47] these books, including one of my, you [43:50] know, probably the number one children's [43:52] book of the 20th century, uh, Maurice [43:55] Synindax, Where the Wild Things Are. [43:57] Maurice Synak was a window dresser at [43:59] Saks Fifth Avenue when when he met Ruth [44:02] and Ruth Krauss and Crockett Johnson. [44:05] Crockett Johnson, Harold and the Purple [44:06] Crayon. Um, and Ruth had him illustrate [44:10] a book that she was doing. Uh, and [44:13] instead of doing the standard thing, [44:15] which is you pay the artist a flat fee, [44:17] she let him share the royalties and it [44:19] was enough money for him to quit his job [44:22] and actually start to make to do [44:23] children's books. So all of these [44:26] stories. So So the the if I'm if I if I [44:30] would was was generous to myself, I [44:32] would say the gift I feel like I'm [44:34] giving you is the backstory of the books [44:36] that you're reading to your children and [44:38] your grandchildren and the books that [44:40] were read to you as a child. This is [44:42] their Jewish backstory and we didn't [44:44] even know it. [44:46] >> Like most of the time I was doing this [44:47] research, I was saying to myself, why [44:49] didn't anybody tell me this? [44:52] >> Yeah, it's so true. We didn't know it. [44:54] Renee, what do you think about all that [44:57] in terms of, you know, I don't know if [44:58] it's connected so much to the Barbie, [45:00] but again, in terms of the story that [45:01] you tell about Ruth and Elliott and the [45:03] fact that they didn't necessarily [45:05] continue their their Jewish piece, but [45:07] there there was a every person sentiment [45:10] connected with Barbie. [45:11] >> Yeah. I mean, well, one thing with with [45:13] Michael's book that comes through so [45:15] beautifully is the Jewish pride. [45:18] >> Yeah. [45:18] >> You know, um, [45:22] just everything and the nostalgia of, [45:25] you know, growing up, it will bring back [45:28] lots of wonderful memories. Um and you [45:32] know I [45:34] so the the one thing about Mattel where [45:39] maybe it was not necessarily um Jewish [45:43] centred centered or anything like that [45:46] but they were very very progressive in [45:50] terms of who they hired. They didn't [45:53] care if you were Mexican, you were [45:55] Asian, you were they did if you could do [45:58] the job, man, woman, you did it. And a [46:02] New York Times um reporter had visited [46:05] Mattel in the early 60s and he said, "My [46:08] god, it's like the United Nations here, [46:11] >> you know, and they were very um very [46:16] ahead of the curve in terms of that." [46:18] they really valued people for their [46:21] skills, what they could do, what they [46:23] could, you know, bring. Um, [46:27] so um, you know, I but I also think [46:32] that, [46:35] you know, for for whatever reason, you [46:38] know, why was it the Jews that brought [46:40] all these toys to market? I think [46:43] there's a certain fire in our bellies. [46:45] You know, a certain hustle that has been [46:48] there since, you know, we've always been [46:51] the underdogs, right? We fight a little [46:54] bit harder, we try a little bit harder, [46:56] we work harder. There's a work ethic [46:58] there. Um that entrepreneurial spirit. [47:02] Um and whether you're making Mr. potato [47:04] head or you're making, you know, uh Hot [47:08] Wheels. [47:09] Um there is that [47:13] there's something um inherent [47:16] that I think came through in that era of [47:21] all these people that brought these toys [47:24] to market. [47:26] >> Can I add to something to that though, [47:27] Lisa, because it's I think Mattel is [47:29] really quite revolutionary in in in one [47:31] respect. Um, Ideal tried to manufacture [47:35] and did manufacture in the late 1950s, [47:38] early 60s, um, a ma the first [47:40] mass-roduced black doll in America, uh, [47:44] the Sarah Lee doll. And it has a long [47:45] history. I talk a long history in the [47:47] book about how they tried to do it. and [47:49] the Sarah Lee doll, which was endorsed [47:51] by Eleanor Roosevelt and tons of of of [47:54] black celebrities, um it failed um [47:57] because um the department stores u like [48:01] Saxth Avenue refused to carry it because [48:03] they were afraid that black people would [48:05] come into the department store and buy [48:06] it and it would scare the white people [48:08] away. So, Ideal withdrew it from the [48:11] market two years after launching it. The [48:13] first mass-produced black doll is [48:15] Chrissy, [48:16] um which is Barbie's friend. [48:18] >> Yeah. And Mattel had has always been [48:21] good on race. And I think this [48:23] underscores something that Renee was [48:24] just talking about about the [48:26] multicultural aspects of the of of the [48:28] of the place. Mattel gave a a grant of [48:31] over $100,000 to Shindana, which was the [48:35] which was a blackowned black doll [48:39] company in Watts that was just starting [48:41] up during the Black Power era in [48:43] 1965-66. [48:45] and Mattel underwrote the production of [48:48] their first dolls um because they [48:51] thought there should be one and uh I [48:54] think that's that's a marvelous also a [48:56] marvelous story about about using your [48:58] your power to empower others. Um [49:02] >> absolutely. So we have two questions [49:04] from the audience actually and they're [49:06] similar. One is if Jews invented the toy [49:08] industry in America, what about overseas [49:10] where there also Jewish toy makers in [49:12] Europe? how how did they impact the toy [49:14] industry worldwide? [49:16] >> Um the the answer to the question is [49:19] twofold. One of one is is Jews were very [49:22] involved in the in the o only other [49:25] place where there was a major [49:26] mass-roduced toy manufacturing in the [49:29] 19th century and that was Germany. All [49:31] those metal uh soldiers uh wood toys and [49:34] all of the dolls that were imported um [49:37] Jews were very involved in that toy [49:39] industry not elsewhere. Um, and the [49:42] second answer is that's about all I [49:44] know. Um, because I really focused on [49:46] the Jew the the Jews once they got here. [49:50] >> All all I can tell you is that Barbie [49:52] was, you know, produced in Japan because [49:55] she was too costeffective. Uh, she was [49:58] too costly to do it here in the States. [50:00] And that was the only cost-effective way [50:02] they could find to do it. And um there [50:05] were even though Jack Ryan spent a great [50:08] deal of time there with an interpreter, [50:10] there was still clearly a language [50:12] barrier because when the first Barbie [50:15] prototypes came back to Mattel, all the [50:17] dolls had Asian features [50:20] >> and they had to send them back. And then [50:22] all the Barbies came in, they had [50:24] nipples. They And Jack Ryan famously [50:28] sawed off the nipples with his pocketk [50:30] knife and sent them back. [50:31] >> Amazing. Um, but you know there were uh [50:35] all the clothes were made over there. [50:37] Everything was made over there. So, and [50:39] yet they didn't sell Barbie in Japan. [50:43] >> Interesting. [50:44] >> So, Michael, you know, it's refreshing [50:46] to see a book title these days that has [50:49] the word Jewish in it given the current [50:52] mixed climate for Jewish themed books. [50:54] So, you know, one could read your book [50:56] and think the Jews really do control the [50:58] world or at least that they, you know, [50:59] controlled American culture, toys, [51:01] books, Hollywood, which of course we [51:02] know that they control Hollywood. But [51:04] have you had any negative experiences [51:06] from either suggested changes from the [51:08] publisher within the text to public [51:10] events? Have you had any backlash? [51:13] >> Not yet. Um, I'm anticipating that. I I [51:16] don't I I I don't think um you know [51:19] Morris victim didn't exactly have a [51:20] foreign policy. So I don't really you [51:23] know and and um but there are there's a [51:26] story there that I don't think is a is [51:28] is particularly politically problematic [51:31] which is the assimilationist story. [51:33] Renee was saying this before and I think [51:36] of the the idea of resilience you know [51:38] that that you know the you know that [51:41] expression you know if life gives you [51:42] lemon make lemonade. Jews are the the [51:44] ultimate lemonade makers, right? You're [51:46] not going to let us be advertisers. [51:47] Okay, we'll do comic books. You know, [51:49] you're not going to let us do this. [51:51] Okay, you you don't want us to join your [51:53] country club? Okay, we'll find we we'll [51:54] have our own. You know, and it it does [51:57] seem to me that there is that story of, [52:01] you know, Jews have never been the home [52:03] team. They've always been the away team. [52:05] And it does seem to me that that that [52:08] this desire for a home, desire to fit in [52:11] is so powerful. It's the story of the [52:14] Lower East Side, how people struggled [52:17] and and scraped everything they could to [52:19] to feel like that they belonged here. [52:22] So, there's that. Now, I have to say in [52:25] my I'm as it's an occupational hazard as [52:27] a sociologist to not simply want my [52:31] mother my mother and I used to talk [52:32] about this. Um, I think my mother would [52:34] have been very happy had I just written [52:35] a a parade of awesome Jews. Um, but I [52:39] wanted to tell a story about why about [52:42] why them, why there. And that's a slight [52:45] it's a it's a story about wanting to fit [52:47] in and and at the same time wanting to [52:50] stand out. You know, this is every I [52:53] mean, every every girl who's ever played [52:54] with Barbie um wants to fit in and stand [52:58] out. And the one thing you don't want to [52:59] do is to stick out. [laughter] [53:04] Actually, one more question from the [53:06] from the audience. If Mattel was so [53:08] multicultural, why didn't it produce a [53:10] specifically Jewish doll? [53:12] >> Anybody have any idea about that? [53:14] >> Well, initially it was Barbie was the [53:18] headliner and then there was so much fan [53:22] mail that came in from little girls. [53:25] Barbie was getting more fan mail than [53:27] Audrey Hepern and Elizabeth Taylor [53:29] combined. [laughter] [53:30] And all the little girls wrote in and [53:33] what did they say? My Barbie's lonely. [53:35] My Barbie wants a boyfriend. And that's [53:37] where Ken came from. Each doll was very [53:40] strategically brought on, but as the [53:45] years have gone on, there's a Barbara [53:47] Stysan doll, a Barbie that is Barbara [53:50] Stryzan. Um, you know, they have modeled [53:53] Barbie after various celebrities and all [53:56] that. Um, I don't know that. [54:02] Yeah, I don't I don't have a really good [54:04] answer for why there hasn't been a [54:06] Jewish Barbie. Um, she's probably [54:09] coming, you know, overdue, but, you [54:13] know, they certainly have a doll for [54:15] just about every other [54:17] uh to represent every everyone else [54:20] >> at at the moment. I think that would be [54:22] politically really challenging. You [54:25] know, you're going to have You're gonna [54:27] if if you have a Jewish Barbie, you're [54:28] going to have a kafia Barbie. I mean, [54:30] it's re it's tricky. [54:32] >> Yeah. Um certainly now you're right [54:34] about that. [54:34] >> Yeah, that's what I'm I'm saying. Now it [54:36] would be it would be tricky. I do want [54:38] to say one thing about the [54:39] assimilationist project and that is what [54:41] happened to Barbara and Ken. What [54:44] happened to Mark Mcdum who was the [54:47] grandson of Mars, the um the son of Ben. [54:50] Um and because the assimilationist story [54:53] is really quite interesting. Barb [54:55] Barbara Handler didn't talk to her [54:56] mother for quite some time. They had a [54:58] real falling out. She was freaked out [55:00] about being Barbie. Every you know all [55:02] the you know if Barbie the the doll is a [55:04] screen imag which people project stuff. [55:07] Imagine what life would have been like [55:09] for Barbara Handler. So she was not [55:11] happy camper. [55:13] >> Yeah. And Barbara also because I I go [55:15] into this quite a bit their their [55:16] relationship in my book because Barbara [55:19] also came out and said I was an absolute [55:21] brat. Like she did not appreciate But at [55:24] the end of her life, um Ruth Ruth says [55:28] um you know uh um you know now Barbara [55:31] is living in a gated community and she [55:34] loves playing golf and she has an [55:36] English boyfriend. I mean like she's [55:39] we've made it. And then and Mark Mcdum [55:41] who had no interest in the toy business [55:43] at all. His father made him you know [55:45] executive vice president but as soon as [55:47] he could he went public he he went [55:50] public sold his shares. um took the [55:53] company public and and eventually it [55:56] dissolved. He took his money and moved [55:58] to Napa where he opened a winery. [56:01] >> Yeah. [56:01] >> Right. Not exactly your typical Jewish [56:03] story, [56:04] >> right? He liked he you know and and so [56:07] this there's a and and there's a whole [56:08] and Marx Louis Marx's sons also had no [56:12] interest in the toy business. They all [56:14] so they they were successfully [56:15] assimilated by by which I mean they no [56:18] longer identified with the industries [56:19] that brought them all the wealth that [56:21] they had. [56:22] >> Yeah. Except the H isn't Hasbro still [56:24] the only Jewish family [56:26] >> Hasbro and and Alan Hassenfeld who who [56:29] who just passed uh last year um it was [56:33] still carrying on and and the family [56:35] still has a controlling interest in [56:36] Hasbro. Um, and it's a and they are just [56:41] they are the nicest people I've I've [56:42] talked to in the entire toy industry. [56:44] Aside from Eddie Goldfarb, who's now [56:47] 105. He was a toy inventor. He's the one [56:49] who invented the yaky yak talk [56:51] chattering teeth. That was his first [56:53] toy. Uh, he's amazing. But they were [56:55] some of the nicest people I talked to. [56:57] >> Well, I actually grew up in Rhode Island [56:59] and so the Hassenfeld name was very [57:00] important as Jewish philanthropists and [57:02] not only toy makers. So maybe that's a [57:05] good note to end on. Um, and I really I [57:08] want to thank you both. This was really [57:09] a wonderful conversation, such an [57:11] important part of American Jewish [57:12] history that that we really haven't [57:14] known. [57:16] >> So, before we uh end and say goodbye, I [57:19] want to announce a few upcoming events. [57:22] Our next virtual Hadasa Magazine [57:24] presents will be on Thursday, September [57:26] 17th at 7 PM Eastern time with a timely [57:30] program as students return to college. [57:32] Textbook Anti-semitism: Understanding [57:35] the Climate on Campus today. See, [57:37] summer's over. We're back to more [57:38] serious stuff. I'll be speaking with [57:40] scholar and writer Isabella Tabarovski, [57:43] author of Via Refusnik, a Jewish student [57:45] survival guide, and other experts about [57:47] the roots of mo modern anti-semitism, [57:49] the current climate on university [57:51] campuses, and how Jewish college [57:53] students can defend themselves in school [57:54] and in the court of public opinion. [57:56] Links to register are in the chat box [57:58] and will be in the follow-up email you [58:00] will all receive. Also, a reminder that [58:02] this event and all of our programs are [58:04] available as podcast episodes. Be sure [58:07] to look out for our upcoming episode [58:08] with Daryl Horn, author of the [58:10] forthcoming book, The Final Solution to [58:12] the Jewish Question: A Love Story for [58:14] the Living, toward the end of October. [58:16] And at the end of November, I will be [58:18] back at the Miami Bookf Fair recording [58:20] an episode with two leading Israeli [58:22] authors, Noah Yedlin and Zoya Shalev, [58:25] who have new books coming out. So, be [58:27] sure to follow Hadasa Magazine Presents [58:29] on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get [58:31] your podcast, so you'll get [58:32] notifications when new episodes drop. Or [58:34] go to hada.org/ org/mpodcast to sign up [58:37] for alerts. I want to thank Ariel [58:40] Kaplan, the magazine's digital editor, [58:42] who both produced and promoted this [58:44] program and also produces the podcast. [58:46] And to Libby Bara, our deputy editor, [58:49] who not only helped plan and implement [58:50] this program, but always is very [58:53] involved with these productions. And a [58:55] shout out to our partners in Hadassa's [58:57] membership, outreach, and engagement, [58:59] and marketing, and communications [59:00] divisions who always help play an [59:03] important role in making these programs [59:04] happen. Thanks again, Renee and Michael. [59:07] Such a pleasure to talk with you today. [59:09] And one last call to buy their books. I [59:11] wish you good luck with whatever your [59:12] future projects are. [59:14] >> Thank you so much. [59:15] >> Thank you so much. A pleasure. Great to [59:17] meet you, Renee. [59:18] >> Great to meet you, too. [59:20] >> Thanks. [59:20] >> We're always happy to bring people [59:22] together. And thanks to all of you in [59:24] the audience for joining us. I wish you [59:26] a wonderful end of summer. And I believe [59:28] it or not, it's not too early to wish [59:29] you an early shaat tova. May your [59:31] holidays be sweet and joyful. Until next [59:34] year. Goodbye. [59:35] >> Bye.
