Transcript [00:03] Hello everyone. This is Dexter Vanzyle [00:06] from Focus on Western Islamism, a news [00:09] outlet uh established by the Middle East [00:11] Forum in 2022. [00:13] We've been documenting the uh the threat [00:16] of political Islam to Western [00:18] democracies [00:20] for the past four years. And one of the [00:23] things that we've always hoped to do and [00:24] worked to do is to speak with people who [00:27] are devout Muslims who are actually [00:29] working to reform how their faith is [00:32] practiced or update how their faith is [00:34] practiced in the modern era. And right [00:37] now I'm speaking with Amomar Islam who [00:39] is an Bangladeshi American lawyer who [00:41] served as prosecutor for Bangladesh's [00:44] international crimes tribunal from 2011 [00:47] to 2014. [00:49] and now he lives here in the United [00:51] States and uh he can talk about that [00:54] during the interview. Years before that [00:56] appointment, he had already spent two [00:58] decades gathering evidence of the 1971 [01:01] genocide and crimes against humanity [01:03] committed by Pakistani forces and local [01:06] collaborators in Bangladesh including [01:08] leaders of Jamaati Islami. Amomar began [01:11] that research as a young lawyer in 1991 [01:14] and he joined early investigations for [01:17] uh the uh committee to investigate that [01:21] and I'm going to mispronounce it amar [01:23] you'll have to do it but uh Janara [01:25] imam's chhatt dal normal committee and [01:28] he later helped frame charges at the [01:30] official tribunal he has argued that [01:33] those cases were not only about the past [01:35] they were also about whether or not the [01:37] uh independent Bangladesh would survive [01:40] And in the United States, he was a [01:42] member of the of a mosque outside of [01:46] Washington DC that was known as the [01:48] Bangladeshi Islamic Center. It was in in [01:50] Arlington, Virginia. Uh and we've [01:53] written about uh his work at that mosque [01:55] and he challenged people involved uh [01:58] with an attempt to basically or you know [02:00] a campaign to take that over. We're not [02:02] going to talk about that issue today. Uh [02:05] but basically he has been one of the [02:06] most vocal counterlimists in the United [02:09] States. [02:10] uh and he's also founded an organization [02:13] called Restore Global Democracy. Uh and [02:16] so it's uh it's with a great honor to to [02:19] to speak with Amar today. I've talked [02:21] with him many times over the years. [02:24] Now um I guess one of the things is that [02:27] I want people to know about is your role [02:29] in confronting and dealing with uh 1971 [02:34] genocide. Can you can you talk about [02:36] that and and and also explain your point [02:39] about uh whether that those you argue [02:43] that that tribunal was basically about [02:46] whether or not Bangladesh was going to [02:47] be a sovereign remain a sovereign [02:49] country. [02:51] >> Hey uh thank you so much uh Mr. Dexter [02:54] uh to invite me today in uh this uh [02:57] discussions uh session and um as you [03:01] said like we have been talking uh for a [03:04] long time couple of good time that we [03:05] met each other um and uh today you come [03:10] up with the forum that where where uh we [03:13] need to talk about. So when we are [03:15] talking about 1971 atrocities in [03:18] Bangladesh uh at that time the [03:21] Bangladesh and uh uh the people of [03:24] Bangladesh Bengali people were uh [03:27] fighting for their liberation and u [03:30] finally after long um uh struggle uh led [03:36] by Awamique [03:38] leader um Bangawundu Sheek Mujiburu [03:41] Rahman uh after 20 24 years of uh you [03:45] know what is a struggle. uh the Bengali [03:49] came out uh in 1971 [03:53] uh for their liberation fight, [03:55] liberation uh you know uh so in that at [03:59] that time uh there were um I will say um [04:05] like all Bengales [04:08] came out of the street um after one [04:11] guidance of Bangabandek Mjubur Rahman um [04:16] to liberate their own country. So in [04:19] this course at that time Bangladesh was [04:22] a east Pakistan the then east Pakistan [04:24] part of uh Pakistan where west Pakistan [04:28] is far away almost 8 n um thousand miles [04:33] away. [04:35] So the culture between these two part [04:38] was very different unless only one u uh [04:42] issues were similar which is belonging [04:46] to the majority of Muslim people. But in [04:49] East Bengal and then East Bengal also it [04:52] was amalgamated society. uh if you see [04:55] that like uh uh one is non-Muslim [04:59] uh family the next house is the Muslim [05:02] family something like that is very [05:03] mixture society were there there was no [05:06] division on the basis of religion in [05:08] East Pakistan basically but 194647 [05:13] it arose when British was left British [05:16] left the India they divided uh the India [05:21] into Muslim majority and a Hindu [05:24] majority majority uh region and then [05:27] that's why the east Pakistan and west [05:29] Pakistan uh became the uh Muslim [05:32] majority part and uh India got their own [05:36] part. [05:37] uh out of that cut of uh everything is [05:41] when the liberation uh war was happening [05:44] like before that in 1970 [05:47] uh the Awami League had owned the [05:51] landslide victory um in the general [05:54] election uh done by the Aub Khan at that [05:58] Khan and then uh when Vhutu was the [06:02] other people's party's uh chief uh he [06:06] didn't won that election action as a [06:09] majority one. So uh since they had a [06:12] good massel and the military majority [06:15] military organizations are belongs to [06:18] the Pakistan and they [06:21] put a lot of pressures on Bengalis in [06:23] East Pakistan and also they didn't come [06:26] up with the uh commitment that they have [06:29] given before the election. So um [06:33] Bengales led by Bangabund Mujibu Rahman [06:38] um they come up uh after the election in [06:41] 1970 [06:42] um after they got their majority. Um so [06:47] there was no way out. Uh so finally uh [06:51] crackdown happened uh on uh in the on [06:56] 25th of March midnight 1971 [07:01] um the occupation Pakistan occupation [07:04] army uh simultaneously [07:07] and at the same time um in different [07:11] canerments of East Pakistan they [07:13] attacked on civilians and the military [07:16] uh installations and killed [07:19] a lot of uh normal people uh uh that [07:23] atrocities uh continued for 9 10 months [07:28] out of this uh when we were I was very [07:32] small at that time actually 8 n years [07:34] old and my my dad was a diplomat at then [07:37] at that time posted in Jakarta [07:40] Indonesia. So we have uh seen some of [07:44] those you know uh unrest times and since [07:48] my dad was diplomat and uh I have to go [07:51] through very keenly with him uh cutting [07:54] the newspaper cutings and all these [07:56] stuff gathering that embedded in my [07:59] brain. Now when 19 in 19 um 91 uh after [08:05] I joined the bar in Bangladesh became a [08:08] lawyer uh the BNP government [08:12] collaborated with uh Jamaati Islami they [08:15] own and they formed the government. uh [08:18] forming the government is one thing and [08:21] bringing the uh Jamaati Islami leaders [08:24] those who were uh opposition to the [08:28] independence of Bangladesh itself they [08:31] defied uh the independence of Bangladesh [08:34] they shook hand with the chief of uh we [08:39] say Amir chief of the Jamaati Islami at [08:42] that time was Mr. Gulam Azam um known as [08:47] profess professor Gulam Azam and uh he [08:51] shook hand with the uh occupation [08:53] military uh Pakistan military and also [08:56] Khan and sit with Nyazi and everybody uh [08:59] to help Pakistan [09:02] um to keep the integrity of uh eastern [09:06] east and west Pakistan together. in the [09:09] name of keeping the integrity he pointed [09:11] out to the he targeted uh and helped the [09:15] Pakistani armies to uh kill normal [09:19] civilians whether it is Hindu whether [09:21] Muslim doesn't matter it's all Bengales [09:23] in East Pakistan [09:26] um [clears throat] so by that way he [09:29] also targeted [09:32] Bengales to kill and they formed uh the [09:34] organizations called Rajakar Albador [09:38] Uh these are paramilitary forces to [09:41] carry um a special type of uh a special [09:46] type of uh like operations to kill uh [09:50] intellectuals and also the important [09:52] people in the and also civilians and [09:55] distra and they committed not only the [09:58] military installations or anything but [10:00] they have attacked and uh uh committed [10:04] arson to the civilian home states and [10:07] village. ages and uh and making an [10:12] making making an assumption of that uh [10:15] freedom fighters are in certain places [10:18] they uh wrecked those villages and one [10:22] of the village in Mahan Singh uh called [10:25] um Shuhakpi uh that means that's a [10:30] that's a village for love loving people [10:32] but that has been converted into uh [10:35] widow's village uh overnight Um and in [10:38] one fine morning at around 10 10:30 they [10:42] uh took [10:45] that Albu leader was Kamaru Jaman uh he [10:48] was the organizing secretary of uh and [10:51] he actually this mastermind of forming [10:54] all those torture camp uh torture camp [10:58] in that area. First they started from [11:00] Mamman Singh and then um he showed he [11:04] walked the military to that Vidhava like [11:07] a widow's village and uh more than 160 [11:12] normal um village people those who were [11:15] working in petty field or in agriculture [11:18] field they were like um [11:22] they were just shoot to death. um uh all [11:28] of a sudden going and uh showering the [11:32] bullets here and there um and uh more [11:36] than 160 people died and only one [11:39] >> you interviewed the survivors of that as [11:41] part of the investigation. Can you talk? [11:43] >> Uh so so in I started the investigation [11:47] as you said that um investigate actually [11:50] it was my own uh initiative I had a very [11:53] big question uh in my mind because I [11:56] have seen that uh seniors work in 1971 [12:00] along with my father and then uh then in [12:03] 1991 when the government was formed and [12:08] people did didn't want the independence [12:10] of Bangladesh are forming in as a [12:13] holding a very important position in the [12:15] government in the parliament. So I had a [12:18] very big question in my mind like uh [12:21] whether 71 was wrong and uh I end up [12:25] going to the uh central library of [12:28] Dhakai University which is in the [12:31] intersection of Shahabag. Everybody [12:34] knows that very famous place. Um I used [12:37] to spend like three hours a day and it [12:40] continued to like four or five months. [12:43] Uh I was able to go through the you know [12:47] half burn, full burn or you know partly [12:50] burn, corner burn all those [12:52] international and national [12:53] documentations, newspapers and you know [12:57] magazines foreign magazines. I remember [12:59] that Harold and then the other two today [13:03] you know economics and today's um all [13:07] those uh newspapers internationally and [13:10] also printed during the under the [13:13] Pakistan government there are some uh [13:16] very known um Pakistan observer was [13:20] known and then uh there was Azad there [13:23] are some and also all those newspapers [13:27] and magazines that I have seen [13:29] I remember that uh in the month of [13:31] October Gulam Casawi um in one of the [13:35] newspaper I read out like read and I [13:37] marked it uh that Gulam Kasawi he's the [13:40] leader of Jamaati Islami of u you know [13:43] central leader and he came to he came to [13:47] um uh East Pakistan during that 1971 in [13:52] in the month of October and he said what [13:55] uh the chief of Jamati Islami Gulam [13:58] Mr. Gulam did in East Pakistan. We [14:01] didn't never ask for ask to do that. So [14:04] we abandon the East Pakistan Jimati [14:07] Islami uh headed by um Gulamazam. So [14:11] this is the caption of the newspaper [14:13] that still I remember. [snorts] So I had [14:16] a very big question about that. Uh so [14:19] finally I made my own research and [14:21] wherever I go I just go to the library [14:24] and look for that. And uh at that time [14:27] online was not that great and uh [14:30] hopefully like at that time online was [14:32] not present like today's in 19 9192. So [14:39] physically we have to go to the uh [14:41] libraries that noted libraries where in [14:44] the ministry of foreign affairs there [14:45] are libraries. Um but one thing is [14:49] always uh very touchy stuffs um [14:52] regarding 71 um uh the all those [14:57] governments like failed to preserve lot [15:00] of important documentations. Um uh but [15:05] um well u we have been like when I uh [15:10] added [15:12] my my effort was continuously to collect [15:16] uh the documentations whether it is um [15:20] it's a favor the independence or is it [15:23] goes against the independence doesn't [15:24] matter um I used to collect to those uh [15:28] it in the form of old books in form of [15:31] old documentations s wherever it is. Uh [15:34] and sometime we went to I went to [15:37] British library in in Dhaka University [15:40] inside the Dhaka University Fuller I [15:43] think Fuller road or something like [15:44] that. So uh there are a lot of libraries [15:48] that I had to go whatever time I do had [15:51] I I went there and then collected that [15:54] was my one of the site. [15:56] >> So you made copies of the documents that [15:58] you found. Yeah. Copies of the documents [16:00] and finally when I came to this country [16:04] I [16:05] >> When did you come? Yeah. To USA I had an [16:08] opportunity to [16:08] >> What year did you come to the United [16:10] States? [16:11] >> Uh I came [16:13] 98. [16:14] >> Okay. [16:15] >> Yeah. I came 98 and from I think 2000 I [16:20] started searching [16:22] u going to the libraries of different [16:24] good libraries congress library and [16:26] other archives very known but I don't [16:29] want to name those archives right now [16:31] here so very important and I went there [16:34] and I used to check I used to see the [16:36] docu pull the documents online or the [16:39] hard copy or the soft copy that wherever [16:42] it is available regarding the [16:44] communications that um happened during [16:47] 1971 [16:49] and uh we as um I know that already [16:52] because um my dad was a diplomat so I [16:55] know the each and every embassies [16:57] >> they have some certain routine work as [17:00] taking the clue of that one I you know [17:03] there are a lot of uh documents that [17:06] each and every day the uh diplomats have [17:09] certain like [17:11] >> now one of the reasons why important for [17:14] you to talk a little bit about this is [17:17] because the documentation that you [17:20] provided to [17:22] um that court process was one is part of [17:26] the documentation that's been used to [17:28] kind of expose the underlying roots of [17:32] the uh Islamist organizations that have [17:35] have influence here in western [17:37] democracies. I mean [17:41] >> there are Islamists who basically were [17:43] involved [17:44] >> the basic Yeah. Yeah. the the basic is [17:46] the involvement of um East Pakistan [17:50] Jamaati Islami. uh later uh it converted [17:53] into Bangladesh, Jamaati, Islami and [17:56] their um and their uh sister or child [17:59] organizations called um so the basic [18:04] document that we found their involvement [18:06] in the atrocities is the uh fortnightly [18:11] uh what is called this police abstract [18:15] uh from the uh from the era of East [18:18] Pakistan and includes during the um 1971 [18:23] 9 month or 10 month you know war time. [18:26] So each and every day the uh at that [18:29] time east Pakistan police authority used [18:32] to do the abstract of daily activities [18:35] of their you know Pakistan military [18:39] military personnels then what's [18:42] happening in different places different [18:44] location different districts district [18:46] wise all those documents that we were [18:48] able to um you know go through and uh [18:52] that is the f that is the basic document [18:55] that uh inrin the uh string attach all [18:59] those basic permanent uh documentations [19:02] regarding the involvement of Jamaati [19:04] Islami and also because they are selfaid [19:07] like it's not somebody else's the [19:09] opposition said it's a self said by the [19:12] east Pakistan government and Pakistani [19:14] government that uh um their activities [19:16] and they proudly said even they name the [19:20] um name the personal name identified the [19:23] comedies of maman singh different [19:26] districts, Dhaka you know uh name what [19:29] all these 40 64 districts or whatever [19:32] happening whatever the activities done [19:34] by the [19:36] Jamati Islami [19:38] you know corroborating corroborating [19:41] these these atrocious activities with [19:44] the Pakistani uh milit occupied military [19:47] forces so those documentations are very [19:50] strong because it's been it's been made [19:54] not under the under the uh after 16th of [19:59] uh December 1971. It was made every day [20:03] um like um uh during the during their [20:07] Pakistani era. So uh it is a very [20:11] special document and also [20:13] >> I guess one of the things that I want [20:15] you to kind of underscore for our [20:17] listeners is because you know we're [20:19] focused on western Islamism but the [20:21] thing is is that the people who were [20:23] involved with that genocide and those [20:25] mass killings some of them came to the [20:28] west and became responsible for [20:30] broadcasting Islamism into western [20:33] democracies. Can you talk a little bit [20:34] about that? Uh yeah that's uh say like [20:38] uh you know at that time there was [20:39] perpetrators one of the two perpetrators [20:42] the uh for they are involved in a [20:45] intellectual killing in during 1971 [20:48] Ashaf Fujaman and also another is um um [20:54] uh these two person one is one is in [20:56] London and one is in New York. So uh [21:00] they they started they started [21:02] organizations uh uh in uh America say [21:06] like a northern northern uh Virginia I [21:10] will say it's a okay they say North [21:13] American um [21:17] Muslim [21:20] >> ma [21:21] >> yeah yeah [21:22] >> Muslim um of North America [21:23] >> Muslim Muslim um for of North America. [21:26] >> Okay. So they have this one and another [21:29] organization is care c a r e care and [21:33] then there is another is um um ikna. [21:38] So actually muna is the uh child [21:41] organization of Jamaati Islami in east [21:44] Pakistan that means Bangladesh Jamaati [21:46] Islam and IKNA is the child organization [21:49] of Pakistan Jamaati Islam. [21:51] >> Okay. uh they both work together and [21:53] they um they both work together in [21:56] America and also they uh they [22:00] always do they try they always think [22:05] themsel as the sole agent of spreading [22:08] Islam. Um spreading Islam is fine but uh [22:12] but not the way of but not that uh way [22:15] they are doing is they um they do some [22:19] of those part of the Islamic principle [22:22] uh as using in politics and militizing [22:26] some of those portions which doesn't [22:29] meet the uh real Islamic principles. [22:33] real Islamic principles is giving dawa [22:36] and uh that is different. Every religion [22:39] they do there are a lot of people come [22:42] to my doorstep from the church that you [22:45] know inviting to go to church. There is [22:47] nothing wrong in it. But the thing is [22:49] the way they do it they come to this [22:51] country and they they try to do kilaphat [22:55] kilaphat is way way behind thing that [22:58] Islam I don't know like today whether [23:01] there is a question of kilaphat or [23:03] something is there or not but the way [23:05] they do it is already something like [23:08] that it's it's putting a pressure uh [23:11] pressure on the people so these are the [23:14] thing that uh you know the when when [23:17] they're using kil A and also uh you have [23:20] we have seen lot of stuff like September [23:23] 11 that happened and what happened [23:25] everybody knows it uh the whole thing [23:28] changed in this country in America. So [23:31] is your argument that the the [23:33] supremacist impulse that manifested [23:35] itself in Bangladesh in 1971 [23:39] I is basically manifesting itself on the [23:42] part of uh Islamist organizations in the [23:46] United States and we don't want to [23:48] accuse them of trying to be in of being [23:50] intent of perpetrating the same type of [23:53] violence that was perpetrated in [23:55] Bangladesh but this the agenda is still [23:58] there. Is that fair to say? Uh yeah yeah [24:00] yeah agenda is there and uh but the way [24:04] they do uh for the kilafhat of Islam is [24:09] different than what is supposed to be. [24:11] >> Okay. [24:12] >> Uh so it's a putting the society in a [24:15] risk is not a process to spread Islam. [24:18] >> Okay. Now, one thing that I want to talk [24:20] to you about before we get on to some of [24:22] the other issues that we want to talk [24:24] about is is that you interviewed [24:27] years later [24:29] uh the inh the the the the people who [24:32] lived at the the inhabitants of the [24:34] widows village. [24:36] >> Can you explain to me what that was [24:38] about? [24:39] >> Well, well, yes. Uh well first of all [24:42] the uh the people the widows in the in [24:45] that area never uh opened their mouth [24:48] because they were uh they were so [24:50] threatened they worried and they [24:53] humiliated and also they don't want to [24:56] say after 45 40 45 years that they have [25:00] been through this type of insultative [25:02] situation during 1971. [25:05] So uh their kids never a lot of people [25:09] there a lot of widows they never said [25:11] that they were they have been humiliated [25:14] or violated during 71 to their kids also [25:17] and now they don't want it to because [25:19] when they when they saw that like the [25:22] the there is a there is a trial going on [25:26] or there there will be a trial to bring [25:28] all those perpetrators to the uh to the [25:32] perview of the justice. Um so at that [25:35] time 43 widows came together and we had [25:40] to talk to them very politely and give [25:43] them the thrust that like you know that [25:46] will happen. One woman just jump out to [25:49] come out to me and then at at that time [25:51] she was uh she was I think 16 or 17 [25:55] years old. [25:57] She she she she jump up and two three [26:00] others jump out and they hold me like [26:02] this that uh um [26:05] we need we need the justice we need the [26:08] justice that makes me uh that makes me [26:12] so committed that I have to do this work [26:16] for them to bring the perpetrators into [26:19] justice to bring the justice for these [26:21] victims [26:23] um and that was in my mind I didn't had [26:26] any um like uh those thing that I have [26:29] to I have to um in the name of uh [26:34] justice or trial I have to give somebody [26:36] some punishment or something like that. [26:38] It was not in my mind. My mind was this [26:41] 40 43 45 years these 43 widows are [26:47] suffering from the their own [26:50] victimization and then they didn't get [26:53] any justice. Nobody asked them what [26:55] happened. So it is a something is [26:59] suppressed pain inside their body inside [27:02] their mind that they couldn't outbust [27:05] anytime you know that people something [27:08] if something happened to people people [27:11] uh people always get rid of those by way [27:14] of outbusting crying saying to somebody [27:18] you know enlightening themselves they [27:19] didn't had that moment and they en they [27:22] enlighted they they outburst they they [27:25] cried out their situation They unburd [27:27] themselves when they spoke. [27:29] >> Yeah. And then and then we took we took [27:31] their statements very politely because [27:34] we don't wanted to like if some of those [27:38] people came for the as a witness in the [27:42] trial they should not be feeling like [27:44] that like we put put words in their [27:47] mouth. I didn't wanted to do that and I [27:50] didn't do that because what their story [27:53] their story they will tell the judge [27:56] will hear we are the people only to [27:59] process the thing that's all [28:02] >> that that's as per law like and and [28:06] >> what was the result of the the the [28:08] tribunal I mean people were [28:10] >> tribunal in that ca in that case uh that [28:13] perpetrator Mr. Kamujaman got a death [28:16] penalty. [28:18] I'm really sorry for his family and [28:20] other families of those perpetrators. Um [28:23] but uh still we are human being. uh but [28:27] uh there is a court system, there is a [28:28] justice system that we have to take care [28:31] of it otherwise a nation cannot be uh [28:35] you know uh like uh to make the nation [28:38] um free from crime uh like crime of any [28:44] any sort of crime that nation embodied [28:46] that that has to be impuged like so [28:49] >> um that's that's that every anybody [28:52] comes into the into the position they [28:55] should do right now. One of the reasons [28:57] why I've asked that you speak at length [28:59] about your involvement [29:01] uh in the tribunal uh is to to basically [29:06] establish your bonafites as somebody [29:08] that is a Muslim [29:11] who is very unhappy with uh the ideology [29:16] of supremacism was used to to justify [29:19] the murder of uh civilians in Bangladesh [29:22] and it also motivates your work against [29:25] Islamism here in the United States. [29:28] >> Uh well, you see that the this is a [29:32] during the war situation in 1971. [29:34] Whatever happened in 1971 during the war [29:38] uh there is a war law, right? So when [29:41] the violations happen when the war laws [29:44] are have been violated that means a few [29:47] things that uh you know uh the civilians [29:50] cannot be attacked the military [29:52] installations and military uh can be [29:55] attacked by the other militaries. So uh [29:57] the civilians are uh civilians child you [30:02] know uh the child and women they should [30:04] be spared from those thing but it was [30:06] not spared [30:07] >> right. So uh it it was not spared they [30:10] they the Rajakar Albad's um the [30:15] they took the MTI freedom fighters [30:19] family members women family members and [30:21] took to the you know camp military camp [30:24] Pakistan military campaign and tortured [30:26] raped and um I know one [30:30] uh one way one victim that still now for [30:34] 45 today is 50 years uh she had been [30:38] taking medication and she lost her um [30:41] giving birth criteria. So it's it's a [30:44] it's a it's a genocide. [30:46] >> It's a genocide. It's not only one case [30:49] a lot of case happen. So now now the [30:51] thing is the [30:55] the war crime in Islam if say if in [30:59] Islam says Islam also have you know [31:02] primitive uh in the in the primitive [31:05] time all those in Islamic law u there is [31:09] a spare there is a rules there is a law [31:11] for the how the war will be conducted [31:15] and you will follow a lot of countries [31:18] the Islamic countries are how they [31:19] follow their rules. Uh war law without [31:22] being you know um without being touching [31:25] or hammer like um damaging sustaining [31:30] damage to the civilians and to the [31:32] civilian properties civilian [31:34] installations and this is they're the [31:37] same law the same law there is no [31:40] justification like if it is not Muslim [31:43] or non-Muslim people should be inhalated [31:46] in the war no you cannot target any [31:50] specific uh group when once it is [31:53] targeted um then it is a genocide you [31:57] are partly or wholly you are trying to [31:59] diminish their race that is a genocide [32:02] this is this is this no religion or any [32:05] Islam it doesn't approve uh and doesn't [32:08] justify to kill people [32:10] >> okay now one of the thing all right so [32:12] what was it like were you living in the [32:14] United States when 911 happened [32:18] >> yeah Yeah. [32:19] >> And and did it bring up thoughts of like [32:21] you know [32:22] >> it is it is lot of dimension lot of [32:25] people's change of thoughts lot of uh [32:28] but uh comparatively um [32:32] we personally didn't face any any any [32:35] any sort of revengeance but the thing is [32:38] the situation changed the situation [32:41] changed because of that like the from [32:44] there say like um lot of Is this loss uh [32:49] a lot of investment uh you know fall [32:52] apart? Uh there are a lot of thing [32:54] happened. People knows that after [32:56] September 11 what happened uh to this uh [32:59] to the society and to the business and [33:01] to the government of [33:03] >> Do you think that the same supremacist [33:05] impulse that motivated the the the [33:08] genocide in uh in Bangladesh was behind [33:12] the the the attack on 911? [33:14] >> Yeah. that that um [33:20] say maybe may not be but since I don't [33:23] know too much of those you know uh [33:26] inside of it but uh what I know as a [33:28] general public in America [33:31] >> um but uh the intention and the people [33:34] from uh those people were from the [33:37] country of origin if we say see that [33:40] like they are a kind of a that type of [33:43] mentality they have like uh those who [33:46] still uh have the honor killing of their [33:49] own family me women family women members [33:51] of their family which is not accepted [33:54] which is which not for you know nowadays [33:58] it is a is it a is it a free um free [34:03] will nation now you know like you have [34:06] all sorts of rights to u rights to [34:09] exercise but yes I will say that like [34:12] all rights if you if anybody if anybody [34:15] exercise their rights beyond their [34:17] boundary or limitations that's not in [34:20] exercising their rights right [34:22] >> now one of the things is that we're [34:24] going to get I'm going to get a lot of [34:25] push back [34:26] >> and because in the years you know in the [34:29] past year or so there's been an awful [34:31] lot of people that are basically saying [34:33] that Islam itself is not compatible with [34:36] the west and one of the things at the [34:38] Middle East forum that we argue is is [34:40] that uh Islam is a 1400year-old religion [34:43] it can be, you know, practiced a whole [34:46] number of different ways. Um, and Daniel [34:49] Pipes has written that essentially, you [34:51] know, Islam is is what what people show [34:54] us and what they say. [34:57] >> And then there's other people that say [34:59] and and we say that Islamism is a [35:01] different ideology [35:03] uh that it may actually rely on [35:06] classical Islam. But I I guess my [35:09] question is what do you say? There's a [35:11] lot of people that that say, "Where are [35:13] are the moderate Muslims? Where are the [35:15] reform-minded Muslims?" And you're one [35:18] of the people, but I hate I hate to say [35:20] it, but there's not a lot of people that [35:23] seem to be willing to stand up to the [35:26] expansionist impulse that the and the [35:30] the the ideology of Muslim male [35:32] supremacism. [35:33] >> All right. See, say see uh let me go a [35:37] little back, right? you know uh the [35:40] first thing that is uh in in Asian [35:43] continent uh Mr. Maana [35:47] Abdullah Modudi uh he started uh some [35:51] writeups of and analyzing some uh some [35:55] options of the Islamic provisions given [35:58] in the Al Quran and uh holy Quran and [36:01] also the hadits say like 42 had which [36:06] have been promulgated during prophet [36:07] Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's [36:09] era at itself but the thing is um he [36:14] twisted lot of stuff to make more [36:17] interesting more interesting to the to [36:21] to use it in a uh uh nation's politics [36:25] in the political field. So Islam [36:29] as it says everybody accepts it as it [36:32] says that uh holy Quran is the only uh [36:36] holy book which is which is termed as uh [36:39] code of life. So a code of life it is a [36:43] very futuristic and very easy and a [36:47] habitable uh principles laid down in [36:50] that uh we follow that one. We don't [36:52] have any problem. We don't have to we [36:55] don't have to hate somebody to follow [36:58] that. We don't have to harm somebody to [37:00] follow that. We we don't we are we are [37:03] running our uh prayers. Everybody is [37:06] there. But when certain people are using [37:10] in the name of Islam some options they [37:13] are codifying to use in a politics to as [37:17] a rival to other political notions. So [37:20] that is the problem. That is the [37:22] problem. Islam is not a problem. Islam [37:26] is there is no moderate. The name of the [37:28] moderate Islam. The moderation [37:32] the people those who say the moderation [37:35] they belongs to certain group like [37:37] Jamaat Islami like uh these type of [37:40] groups those who are using the Islam in [37:44] a political field. [37:46] >> Okay. [37:46] >> They are saying they are terming this is [37:48] a modernization. This is a modern Islam. [37:51] There is no moderate Islam. Islam it's [37:56] given already in a holy book Al Quran. [37:59] >> Okay. [38:00] >> And also in the Hadith and there are lot [38:03] of writings if somebody wants to follow [38:05] that they can follow it. And let me let [38:07] me let me tell you one thing in Islam [38:09] the the most human rights has been given [38:13] in Islam. [38:15] So but why they are not following that [38:17] human rights? They follow human rights [38:19] when [38:21] they wants to take the advantage of [38:23] human rights provision. [38:25] not giving the human rights to the other [38:27] people. Why not? It is for everyone. [38:30] everyone and in Capitol Hill you'll find [38:33] that Thomas Jefferson have the he [38:37] honorable that Thomas Jefferson of [38:40] America he researched on Alquran and [38:43] promulgated and make the US constitution [38:46] full of human rights and bill of rights [38:48] and everything more than [38:51] >> one of the things that people say in [38:53] response [38:53] >> more than 275 copies of revisional you [38:57] know constitution is in the capital in [39:00] Thomas Jefferson Gallery. [39:02] >> Right now, one of the things that people [39:03] are going to say is is that [39:05] >> look, you know what about the passage [39:07] that says slay the unbelievers wherever [39:09] you find them. That that and also the [39:12] whole the the construction of the the [39:14] dimitude the dimmipact and the dimitude [39:18] that basically puts non-Muslims, [39:20] Christians and Jews especially into a [39:22] subordinate position. [39:24] You clearly are not in any way [39:27] interested in following that type of [39:30] agenda. You're not interested. [39:32] >> No. No. [39:34] >> People will say, however, that that's [39:37] that's part of Islam. That that's not [39:39] something that you can just dismiss. [39:41] What what what's your how how do what's [39:44] what's your response? [39:45] >> See, my response is I follow Islam. I [39:48] follow al Quran. I follow the Hadith. I [39:51] don't have to follow somebody wrote some [39:54] books out of his mind out of some [39:57] targeted research like Mr. Allah Mudi to [40:01] promulgate to form a jamati Islam type [40:03] of you know [40:07] theory and then imposing on different [40:10] people uh as if like giving some you see [40:13] let me tell you one thing in a in [40:15] pre-Islamic era in pre-Islamic era in [40:19] Arab society Arab society and Islamic [40:23] era is not the same there was an Arab [40:25] society before even Islam came right So [40:29] in that there is a there was a temporary [40:32] marriage called muta marriage and [40:35] prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi [40:36] wasallam he said like muta marriage is [40:39] not good for society and you have heard [40:42] of sometimes some in some corner of the [40:46] world it says uh legal prostitution is [40:49] nothing but a muta marriage and now if [40:53] these people bring that one is a facade [40:56] item to their lifestyle [40:59] It is not Islam. [41:01] >> Okay. [41:02] >> Uh from the time of prophet Muhammad [41:05] sallallahu alaihi wasallam what he said [41:07] bars few items [41:09] those items are barred. You cannot bring [41:11] it back then if you bring it back then [41:14] it is not an Islam. [41:15] >> All right. You know, I I'm very [41:16] sympathetic and your courage is strong [41:19] and I admire you very much, but one of [41:21] the concerns and I don't want to belabor [41:23] this point, but the thing is is that it [41:25] seems as if Maduti, [41:27] Karadawi, [41:29] Albana, when they're able to make plain [41:32] text appeals. [41:34] It see you know to the Quran and some of [41:37] the hadiths they basically it seems to [41:41] they can make a pretty good case that it [41:43] it it requires them to impose it but you [41:46] draw from another element of the faith [41:48] it seems [41:50] >> uh see there are a lot of writers there [41:53] are a lot of interesting writings [41:55] recently one book came into my hand and [41:58] I'm I'm going through that book as uh [42:00] the writer is from Pakistan it doesn't [42:03] matter who is from where but I go [42:05] through those books and all this stuff I [42:07] see that and there are sometime some [42:10] politicians they wrote their book to [42:13] make their case strong and the other [42:16] people normal people they don't write [42:18] those books. So what happened is the [42:21] books with the targeted options are in [42:24] the market and it has been provided [42:26] freely to give away you know to give [42:29] away people go reach out to those books [42:31] and they okay one day two day three in a [42:35] month maybe they are reading something [42:37] and it seems that very justified and all [42:39] this stuff but [42:42] underlying meaning is something very [42:44] different which he even doesn't know it [42:46] that what is the difference he got one [42:49] way and he thinks oh okay and everybody [42:53] believes sometime the [42:57] like diverted stuff [43:00] because he don't have any other [43:02] alternative resources [43:03] >> and are people creating those [43:06] alternative resources do you think are [43:08] there people now that are starting to [43:10] within because Mustafa Aul I just did a [43:14] book review of a book that he edited and [43:16] he invokes the passage there is no [43:18] compuls ulsion in religion and Mustafa [43:21] Aiel says that's the the element that we [43:23] need to follow in the modern world and [43:26] the and when we don't we actually bring [43:28] discredit onto the Islamic faith and and [43:33] >> he I will say the way you said it looks [43:36] like I am uh I'm part like the Islam [43:42] doesn't say impose forcefully Islam on [43:45] somebody. Islam says you you first you [43:49] say prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi [43:50] wasallam uh whenever somebody comes for [43:54] any uh problem to solve and he used to [43:57] see he used to think about himself [44:00] whether he is in his habit such [44:03] wrongness happened or not then he [44:05] correct himself and then give the advice [44:09] to correct the other people as if [44:11] somebody came to see like I can't [44:14] somebody came to him I can't stop eating [44:17] sweet and then he said okay you come [44:19] next time after 2 days within that time [44:22] because he was so attached to the sweet [44:25] he liked sweet and he tried to give up [44:28] the sweet and he gave up give up the [44:30] sweet and then he said okay you need to [44:34] give up your sweet that's how it is [44:36] Islam the very basic principle like you [44:39] cannot force somebody to accept Islam [44:42] >> right [44:43] >> which was like in a Pakistani Pakist [44:45] Pakistani military forces during 1971 [44:49] they force the non-Islamic people to [44:52] accept Islam to say certain verses uh so [44:57] when when force is there question is [45:00] there that is not right in Islam [45:03] >> okay now I guess now you have [45:06] established an organization called [45:08] restore global democracy and when we [45:10] spoke about this previously I said when [45:12] have we had global democracy when is it [45:15] ever existed and but can you talk to me [45:17] about your hopes for this organization? [45:20] uh I I made a research on global [45:22] democracy which countries have full [45:25] democracy which countries have flawed [45:27] democracy which country don't have any [45:30] uh democracy but the autocracy and [45:32] everything that I found lot of thing and [45:34] the I see the future of a restored [45:36] global democracy have a very good future [45:41] and uh we do have work uh we do uh can [45:44] cover at like there is a ample of work [45:47] to do in each and every country uh to [45:50] work on a democracy because democracy is [45:53] such a thing that like uh there is a lot [45:57] of direct democracy, indirect democracy. [46:00] Uh so this type of democracy when we see [46:03] the the democracy is indirect that means [46:06] we are uh having uh uh we are having a [46:10] um you know voting power but our vote [46:14] doesn't uh really um um elect somebody [46:19] directly. [46:21] that is a flawed democracy [46:24] uh that should be able to reflect [46:28] directly their votes and majority and [46:30] minority uh for that candidate. So that [46:34] is absent in very big countries. [46:37] >> Okay. So I see the fortune, I see the [46:40] opportunity people to establish their [46:43] rights, democratic rights not only in a [46:46] particular uh country but uh it should [46:49] be globally. So global [46:52] >> Yeah. Now one of the things is that I [46:55] see you as kind of a moderate a [46:58] modernizing force in the Muslim world. [47:01] Okay. And it it seems as if you want to [47:04] help basically bring modernity into [47:07] Muslim majority countries and also [47:09] protect modernity [47:11] uh in Western democracies as well. That [47:13] seems to be what you're a fan of. And I [47:16] I guess my question is [47:20] what's the next step? [47:23] uh I talked to you and I'm talking to [47:25] other people also in different forums [47:27] but um it's very hard to move on uh from [47:32] the very grassroot level but it has to [47:35] be it has to be going towards the [47:37] international level global level global [47:40] organizations should uh look into it and [47:43] see that what they can help it out or [47:46] they can attend their next uh you know [47:48] gap uh so every organization have their [47:52] own agendas towards the democracy, [47:55] establishing democracy, developing [47:57] democratic country and uh those things. [48:00] But the thing is everybody have certain [48:03] uh gray areas or dark areas or blank [48:06] areas that I I think restore dem restore [48:09] gal global democracy can fulfill that [48:12] area. [48:12] >> All right. So I got two more questions [48:14] and and I and I then I just and then any [48:17] last point but the what do you say to to [48:20] Muslims uh who and and it's basically [48:24] the same question but it's the two from [48:26] two different angles. What do you say to [48:29] Muslims who say, "Look, the Quran [48:31] requires these things of us and and we [48:34] need to expand the caliphate and Muslims [48:38] need to be in charge and [48:42] what do you say to those Muslims [48:45] and [48:47] uh what do you say to Christians and non [48:49] and other groups of non-Muslims who are [48:51] fearful of that message coming out of of [48:54] those those those people out out of the [48:57] mouths those people [48:58] >> all right see it's a two sides like if [49:02] you are using the reform then I will say [49:05] the those who are trying to exercise [49:07] moderate uh Muslim as a moderate Muslim [49:12] they should reform themselves to the uh [49:15] you know futuristic uh alquranic holy [49:19] Quranic and a haditsbased uh um the [49:22] Islamic practice and they they need the [49:25] reform not the original Islam [49:28] based on al Quran, holy Quran and Hadith [49:31] should be reformed. There is nothing to [49:33] reform is already given in a futuristic [49:36] way. So uh the people that the group of [49:39] people or the group some certain groups [49:42] they try to use uh because in the name [49:46] of Islam or in the name of religion [49:49] all people blindly accept those and now [49:52] if I say they make some slogans okay if [49:55] you vote to this symbol you get the [49:58] heaven. There is no such thing. There is [50:01] no such thing. There is nothing related [50:04] to heaven and with the with the symbol [50:06] of a political party in the on this [50:08] earth right but the thing is uh they but [50:12] the layman's uh very normal people when [50:15] they see the symbol of uh somebody is [50:18] preaching about name of Allah and you [50:22] know and misleading people they just [50:25] close their eyes and put their votes [50:27] there. This is not what in Islam says. [50:31] You preach the right thing. You make [50:33] people understand. They have the liberty [50:36] and they have their rights to take their [50:40] own decision. That's how it should be. [50:43] In uh in other religion people every see [50:46] let me tell you one thing there is a [50:48] there is a uh surah there is a verse uh [50:51] the last uh line of the verse is [50:56] that means the before it has got four [51:00] lines the surah al kafirun [51:04] so all Muslim knows what is surah al [51:07] kafirun [51:09] surah al kafirun the gists the summary [51:12] is [51:14] I don't believe what you believe. You [51:17] don't believe what I believe. I don't [51:20] believe yours belief. You don't believe [51:23] my belief. Let you believe yours and I [51:28] do my belief. [51:32] So Islam is very open-minded. [51:36] It gives people other religion people in [51:40] Islam. It it gives other religion people [51:43] to [51:45] practice their own religion. [51:47] >> Okay. How how [51:49] >> how much this practice as such this [51:52] practice I see in America. [51:55] >> Yeah. Okay. [51:56] >> But it is absent in Muslim countries. [51:59] >> Okay. [laughter] [52:00] And that's what [52:01] >> there's a very interesting side. Right. [52:02] >> Right. And but do you think that there's [52:05] do you think that there is a for for [52:09] lack of a better word is there an [52:10] audience or a market for the message [52:12] that you just gave [52:13] >> because a lot of group people we discuss [52:15] all this thing and whenever it comes uh [52:18] inter interfaith stuff comes I always [52:21] use this [52:24] and everybody appreciate that because [52:27] >> that's that's the saying in Al Quran you [52:29] know surah al kafir [52:31] >> okay [52:32] >> it's not It's not something human made [52:34] or something I made it out or something [52:36] like that. No. [52:37] >> And Okay. And you want that to be [52:40] essentially the rule or the example that [52:42] we [52:42] >> you have your faith, I have mine. [52:45] >> Let's live in peace. [52:47] >> All right. And and and if you go to the [52:49] deepest way four four holy about four [52:53] holy books [52:56] they have the brotherhood and in uh [52:58] finally in uh al Quran it accepts you [53:02] can go for intermarriage within this [53:05] four holy books. [53:07] >> Okay. So it is not my saying my finding [53:10] is from different uh different writers [53:13] and also from the verses that like you [53:16] know there are in I think it's in surah [53:19] anisa uh gave lot of lifestyles [53:22] provisions in that surah anisa surah al- [53:26] bakara there are very big big you know [53:29] all those uh suras that gives the [53:31] lifestyle and that's why it says code of [53:34] life supreme code of life [53:36] >> all All right. All right. I want to [53:38] thank you Omar. Uh you've been you know [53:41] people if they want to understand why [53:44] I'm so admiring of Omar. I want they can [53:46] read the article that we've written [53:48] about uh his involvement with the mosque [53:50] in Arlington uh Virginia outside the [53:53] cap. He has stood up to Islamists and [53:56] he's done it for all his life. And I [53:58] just want to thank you for speaking with [54:00] me Amara and I and I hope our viewers [54:03] have a good rest of their day. Thank you [54:04] so much. Hey, thank you the Dexter and [54:07] thanks to our all those listeners and [54:09] viewers and uh whoever listens in [54:13] future. There.
Dexter Van Zile of Focus on Western Islamism speaks with Amar K. Islam, a Bangladeshi-American attorney who served as a prosecutor for Bangladesh's International Crimes Tribunal from 2011 to 2014.
Long before that appointment, he was a young lawyer with a question he couldn't shake: in 1991, men who had opposed Bangladesh's independence were sitting in its government. Was 1971 wrong? He went looking for an answer — three hours a day in the central library at Dhaka University, sifting half-burned newspapers and foreign magazines, then years later in American archives. What he found included the fortnightly police abstracts compiled by East Pakistan's own authorities during the war: a daily, contemporaneous record in which local collaborators named themselves and their committees district by district.
In this conversation he describes the March 25, 1971 crackdown; the Razakar and Al-Badr paramilitaries; and the Mymensingh village whose name means "village of people who love," turned into a village of widows in a single morning when more than 160 farmers were shot in their fields. He also describes what happened decades later, when 43 of those widows came forward — one of them grabbing hold of him and saying simply, "We need the justice."
From there the discussion turns west. Amar traces the lineage of MUNA and ICNA back to Jamaat-e-Islami in East Pakistan and Pakistan, and argues that the problem is not Islam but a political project built on top of it — one he traces to Abul A'la Maududi's writings. Van Zile presses him on the hard cases: the verses critics cite, the dhimma, the caliphate, the recurring question of where the reform-minded Muslims are. Amar's answer rests on Surah al-Kafirun — Lakum dinukum wa liya din, "you have your religion and I have mine" — and on his contention that it is the political readings, not the faith, that require reform.
He also discusses founding Restore Global Democracy, and his years of confronting Islamists at a mosque in Arlington, Virginia.
Read our reporting on his fight at the Bangladeshi Islamic Center: https://www.meforum.org/jihad-in-the-capital-dc-area-mosque-targeted-for
Focus on Western Islamism is a project of the Middle East Forum. Subscribe for more interviews like this one.
