Transcript [00:00] What is the greater threat to Jewish [00:02] life today? Is it the unprecedented [00:05] surge in anti-semitism [00:07] spreading across the globe? Or is it the [00:10] pacivity of some Jews who recall from [00:12] active defense against their attackers? [00:14] Or the willingness of others, including [00:17] some Israelis, to actively collaborate [00:19] with those who seek their destruction. [00:22] Today on Think Twice, we discuss the [00:24] confusion that seems to re in the minds [00:27] of so many Jews that makes them their [00:29] own worst enemies with author and [00:32] columnist Leo Lieovitz. [00:55] Hello and welcome to Think Twice. As [00:57] anti-semitism surges across the globe [01:00] with blood libels against Israel [01:02] routinely mainstreamed by the media and [01:04] leading politicians, Israeli Jews are [01:07] shouldering the burden of defending [01:09] their country. But the questions facing [01:11] diaspora Jews are in some ways more [01:13] difficult and their answers far less [01:16] satisfactory than the Jewish state's [01:18] successful campaigns to reduce the [01:20] ability of Iran and its terrorist [01:22] proxies to inflict harm on its citizens. [01:25] But as we're seeing with a questionable [01:27] documentary film created by Israelis [01:30] alleging that the Israel Defense Forces [01:32] used AI to commit war crimes, the [01:35] impulse to turn on your own isn't [01:37] limited to Jewish members of the [01:38] chattering classes in the United States [01:40] and elsewhere. Just as important is the [01:43] way so many Jews are either retreating [01:45] in the face of hate and trying not to be [01:48] seen as Judaism public lest they be [01:50] targeted or as we've seen with some [01:53] political figures like Michigan Attorney [01:55] General Dana Nestle counseling Jews to [01:58] prioritize the Democratic party's [02:00] interests and priorities rather than [02:02] their own survival or that of Israel. [02:05] It's clear that a lot of Jews are [02:07] responding to the crisis with pacivity [02:10] rather than taking up the job of [02:11] providing for their self-defense. [02:14] To discuss this and much else, we're [02:16] pleased to have back with us today one [02:18] of the sharpest and most insightful [02:20] commentators of the Jewish world. Leo [02:22] Labovitz is a senior fellow at the [02:24] Hudson Institute and an editor at large [02:27] for tablet and the host of some of its [02:30] popular podcasts. He is also the author [02:33] or co-author of a number of books [02:35] including most recently How the Talmud [02:38] can change your life surprisingly modern [02:40] advice from a very old book as well as [02:42] biographies of Stan Lee and Leonard [02:44] Cohen. He also writes the regular [02:46] Lieovitz at large column for first [02:48] things and is a frequent contributor to [02:51] the New York Post and other [02:52] publications. Leo Lieovitz, welcome back [02:56] to Think Twice. [02:57] >> What a pleasure. Well, thanks so much [03:00] for taking the time to join us today. [03:03] I want to start by noting that in much [03:05] of your recent work, you've been [03:08] discussing the surge of anti-semitism [03:10] that certainly American Jews have been [03:12] experiencing. But I want to start by [03:14] focusing on a piece you wrote last month [03:17] about the way members of a New York [03:19] synagogue responded when a deranged [03:22] person broke in during services, [03:23] disrupting them and assaulting a [03:25] congregant. What disturbed you the most [03:28] about this incident? [03:30] >> What disturbed me the most is what I [03:32] didn't see. I did not see a single [03:35] Jewish man, woman, or child rush this [03:39] middleage overweight loser and tried to [03:43] take him down. I saw a congregation of [03:46] people cowering in the pews, retreating [03:49] and waiting for the paid security guards [03:51] to rush in and save them. And if that's [03:54] all you've got, then what you have isn't [03:56] a congregation. What you have is a [03:58] hospice of people just sitting there and [04:00] waiting for everything to end. And when [04:03] that happens, we're in trouble. Jos, [04:05] thanks for tuning in to Think Twice. [04:08] Whether you're listening to us on any of [04:09] the podcast platforms or watching us [04:12] live on Facebook or X or on the JNS [04:15] YouTube channel, please like and or [04:17] subscribe to JNS, click on the bell for [04:19] notifications, and give us good reviews. [04:22] Also, in addition to think twice, there [04:24] is a Jonathan Tobin Daily podcast where [04:26] I share more news and analysis with you [04:28] about the most significant issues we're [04:30] facing today. You can find the Daily [04:33] Show under Jonathan Tobin Daily on the [04:36] JNS channel wherever you get your [04:38] podcasts. And now back to today's [04:41] program. [04:43] >> Yeah. Uh I think it's you know u I think [04:46] you're right to to seize upon it because [04:48] it is kind of symbolic about a lot [04:52] that's happened in the last 3 years [04:53] since October 7th especially here in the [04:56] United States where Jewish students were [04:59] counseledled to uh shelter in place when [05:02] confronted with you know proamas mobs [05:04] and for the most part they followed that [05:06] advice. Um, but I wonder, is it unfair [05:11] certainly as far as the kids are [05:12] concerned to expect Jewish kids to [05:14] respond to those sorts of provocations [05:17] and efforts to marginalize and and [05:19] especially to intimidate them in any way [05:22] other than sheltering in place since [05:24] they have not been raised in a Jewish [05:26] culture in this country, which honored [05:28] the sort of response that you you want. [05:30] It's not just that they don't know how [05:32] to defend themselves, and clearly most [05:34] of them don't, especially since most of [05:36] the people threatening them don't seem [05:38] that threatening to me from my, you [05:41] know, much uh older perspective, but [05:44] that they don't really believe that [05:45] confronting those who hate them is the [05:47] correct response to anti-semitism [05:49] in the same way that they might cheer [05:51] those who stood up to racists. [05:54] >> You know, you said something critical. I [05:56] think in this country uh for my sins [05:59] I've had the opportunity to spend some [06:01] time uh in the soon to be conquered uh [06:06] continent of Europe uh which is a which [06:08] is a sad dark and miserable place for [06:11] the most part. And if you attend Shabbat [06:14] services in any synagogue pretty much in [06:16] Europe, here's what you see. You see [06:18] something out of a dystopian sort of uh [06:21] apocalyptic, you know, movie. You see [06:24] hordes of armed guards. You see these [06:27] sort of like big kind of uh you know [06:30] concrete blocks in front of synagogues [06:32] and you see Jews sort of cowering [06:34] rushing to get in through the door. You [06:36] see in other words not a synagogue but a [06:38] citadel. Now that is wrong for two [06:42] reasons or maybe even three. The first [06:44] reason uh is because it really turns [06:48] Jewish life into something quite [06:50] miserable. You tell your children, "Hey, [06:52] every shabus, you know, put on your flag [06:55] jacket. We're going to war." Who in [06:57] their right mind would like to grow up [06:58] in that? [06:59] >> Second of all, it doesn't even work all [07:02] the time as we've seen in cases [07:04] tragically last Jung Kipor in [07:06] Manchester, etc. But most importantly, [07:08] it tells your neighbors that it is okay, [07:12] that this is the new normal, that it's [07:14] perfectly fine. The Jews will just have [07:15] more security. Now, here's the thing, [07:17] Jonathan, and I think this goes to the [07:19] heart of your question. Uh if Zionism [07:21] taught us anything and indeed if Judaism [07:23] taught us anything is that our [07:25] expectation should never ever be to be [07:28] safe, our expectation should always be [07:32] to be free. Free people have the door [07:35] wide open. Free people welcome in [07:38] everyone that wants to come in. Free [07:39] people are armed and trained and ready [07:42] to defend themselves against their [07:44] haters. This is a very normal state of [07:47] being applicable everywhere it seems [07:50] except for the mainstream American [07:52] Jewish community which still harps on [07:54] about risk management. Well, you know [07:56] that weighs li that way lies too. Yeah, [08:00] I I think it's it's very true. I mean we [08:03] we can do well. Well, I've been in [08:04] Europe recently, too, and to to note the [08:07] you sort of, you know, it's sort of a [08:09] night of the living dead, uh, you know, [08:12] Jewish communities often, you know, or [08:14] basically places where there are no more [08:16] Jewish communities, just basically [08:18] monuments. But here in the United [08:20] States, in fairly short order, we have [08:24] gotten used to the idea that every [08:26] synagogue is a is a citadel, is is a [08:29] fortress. And that the problem is is [08:32] that they're not, you know, the walls [08:33] aren't thick enough, that the defenses [08:35] aren't high enough, that we don't have [08:37] enough guards, we need more money from [08:39] the government to to help finance it. We [08:41] need to be better organized. And listen, [08:44] a lot of the people involved in trying [08:46] to defend synagogues are doing their [08:48] best. and I don't criticize them at all. [08:51] But you're right um that this speaks to [08:54] a mindset that is not only not willing [08:56] to defend li, you know, people don't [08:58] want to defend their liberty, but they [09:00] do take it as normal that they should be [09:03] under siege when just down the block, [09:06] you know, at the local churches or or [09:08] even mosques, you don't see that. you I [09:11] mean nobody see nobody stops to question [09:13] why the churches are you know aren't [09:16] armed you know in the way that [09:18] synagogues are and that you know we we [09:22] take it as you know if not okay then [09:24] we're just well it's just you know how [09:26] we have to live I mean you know there [09:28] there differences I happen to pray at [09:31] the same synagogue as the governor you [09:32] know on high holidays I I attend the [09:36] same synagogue as the governor of [09:37] Pennsylvania so you know he brings a [09:39] posi with So, uh, people feel safer [09:42] there. But like, you know, that's pretty [09:45] weird. I mean, that we depend on that. [09:48] But it applies in general. It's not just [09:50] about our synagogues. It applies to our [09:52] lives as Jews. How many conversations [09:55] have you heard about people not wearing [09:57] stars or high or, you know, they don't [09:59] want to, you know, like where do where [10:01] do you want to expose yourself as a Jew? [10:04] you know, to the point where, you know, [10:07] it isn't just the Orthodox Jews or the [10:09] Karedi Jews who wear the signs around [10:11] their necks saying, "Here I am, a Jew. [10:13] I'm a target." Uh, you know, reformed [10:16] Jews who might wear a piece of Jewish [10:18] jew uh uh jewelry uh are in the same [10:22] position. Yeah, it applies to every [10:24] corner of Jewish life, which is because [10:26] I think not enough Jews these days have [10:30] uh studied carefully that most sacred of [10:33] ancient texts, the Godfather. And I [10:36] believe it says in tractate Corleó uh [10:39] that the only way to really stop this [10:42] kind of thing from happening is to [10:44] project a great degree of strength and [10:47] confidence. as someone says, you know, [10:49] you send one of ours to the emergency [10:51] room, we send two of yours to the morg. [10:53] No problem at all. I'm not, God forbid, [10:56] advocating violence. But I am saying [10:58] there is something to be said about uh [11:01] the people who are out to hurt us. These [11:03] are not sophisticated people. These are [11:05] not thoughtful people. These are people [11:07] who have the same exact instincts as [11:10] predatory animals. And what predatory [11:12] animals understand is brute force. I can [11:15] attack this Jew because this Jew [11:17] quivers. This Jew, all I have to do is [11:19] shout a little bit and the Jew quickly [11:21] removes his Yarmaka, quickly removes his [11:23] necklace, quickly kind of goes to the [11:25] other of the street. Now, what happens [11:27] when the same vile animal meets a Jew [11:30] who looks at him and says, "What? No." [11:33] Uh well, in some cases there may be some [11:36] scuffles and some some confrontations, [11:38] but I will say again and I will say [11:40] until I'm blue in the face. A nation, a [11:43] people who are afraid of confrontation [11:45] is a nation that is not going to survive [11:47] long. And again, the modern state of [11:49] Israel is a perfect example to show us [11:51] what happens when you say, "Okay, well, [11:53] you know, go ahead, attack. Let's see [11:55] how far you'll get." [11:57] >> Yeah. It's it's a uh it's a very broad [12:00] uh you know it's kind of a [12:01] generalization but it's it's very true. [12:05] Um but then let's talk about the kind of [12:08] advice Jews are getting right these days [12:10] by people who are supposedly you know in [12:13] leadership positions. Uh I wrote about [12:15] um a speech given by Michigan Attorney [12:19] General Dana Nestle who um who uh you [12:23] know had briefly gotten a little [12:25] celebrity as a Jew with a spine because [12:27] she said she wasn't going to attend or [12:30] at least someone with some sense of uh [12:32] of self-respect. She said she wouldn't [12:34] attend her party's state convention [12:36] because the last time they held one, you [12:38] know, the the pro-Israel people were [12:41] booed off the stage and there was open [12:43] anti-semitism. She said she wouldn't [12:45] expose herself to that. But then she [12:47] spoke to a group of Jewish Democrats and [12:50] said, you know, maybe the problem here [12:52] is that we're prioritizing our own [12:55] survival over the, you know, what is [12:56] good for the world. you know, glob, you [12:58] know, stopping global warming and, you [13:01] know, not enforcing immigration laws. [13:03] And maybe it would be better if, you [13:06] know, if it meant, and the context was, [13:08] you know, the uh voting for Dr. Abdul [13:11] Elsad, the uh, you know, Islamist, [13:15] Israel hater, anti-semite who is the [13:17] Democratic candidate for Senate in [13:19] Michigan, that even, you know, if his [13:22] triumph and the triumph of the [13:23] Democratic party is more important than [13:26] the security of Michigan's Jews or even [13:28] the existence of the state of Israel. [13:31] Um, you know, like how is that [13:34] normative? How is how is that? I mean, [13:36] she got criticized by people like me, [13:38] but you know, still. And then you have [13:41] other people uh sort of on the left and [13:44] I'll just take one example of somebody [13:46] who wrote an essay that caught my eye. [13:48] Robert Reich, the former cabinet member [13:50] in the Clinton administration who wrote [13:53] basically, you know, compared to him, [13:55] Dana Nestle was a realist because she [13:58] was at least acknowledging that the Elsa [14:00] of the world intend to do Jews harm and [14:02] that we should just, you know, live with [14:05] it because the Democrats are more [14:07] important. The Democrat success is more [14:09] important than the Jews. But Reich was [14:11] saying that Elsa is good and that uh you [14:16] know we Jews should not fear him. They [14:19] should support him. They should support [14:21] >> practicing what we like to call tikun [14:23] Islam. It's a very beautiful way of [14:26] looking at the world. [14:28] >> Yeah. Um so what does that say about the [14:33] fact and you know listen you know I have [14:35] we can get to this a little later. have [14:37] some problems with with the Republican [14:38] party right now too. But if Jews who [14:42] still make up the m you know vast [14:44] majority of them are still you know vote [14:46] likely to vote for Democrats consider [14:48] themselves politically liberal. But if [14:51] their partisanship is more important [14:52] than Jewish survival then of course [14:55] they're not going to defend themselves. [14:56] You know, Jonathan, I I was I was [14:58] actually deeply grateful to Danessa when [15:01] she said uh what she said because I [15:04] think uh she was simply practicing the [15:07] fine art of speaking the quiet parts out [15:10] loud. Uh it is doubtful that anyone in [15:13] the so-called Jewish leadership and [15:16] that's a contradiction in terms sadly [15:18] these days but it is doubtful that [15:20] anyone in uh any position of power at [15:22] any one of the major Jewish American [15:24] organizations would come out and say the [15:26] same thing. In fact many of them rush to [15:28] say oh my god how dare she say something [15:30] so so vile and suicidal. But the [15:34] inconvenient truth is that by deed, if [15:37] not by word, every single one of our [15:39] so-called communal leaders practice the [15:42] same exact thought process. Let's look [15:44] at some of the most pressing issues that [15:48] actually affect the well-being of Jews [15:50] today. First and foremost, among them by [15:52] a mile, immigration. It is currently an [15:56] an unbelievable [15:58] urgent matter for Jews to stand up and [16:01] realize that open borders are a complete [16:03] disaster not only for Jews but for [16:05] Americans and for America as a concept. [16:08] That curbing undocumented migrants, [16:10] illegal immigrants is the most important [16:13] challenge ahead of us. and that actively [16:15] deporting all those thousands of animals [16:18] who've been brought here under some [16:20] pretense to be students in Madras like [16:23] Colombia is a national security concern. [16:26] How many Jewish leaders do you hear [16:29] coming up and saying we need to talk [16:31] about immigration? How many Jewish [16:32] leaders you hear coming up and say, you [16:34] know what, I'm really really sorry guys, [16:36] we have a problem with Islam. uh you [16:38] could make this kind of silly [16:40] contortionist act and saying there's the [16:42] Islamists and then drum roll please [16:45] there's the moderates you know the nice [16:47] nurses and lawyers and accountants in [16:49] Michigan who cheered after October 7th [16:53] who support al- siad and his policies [16:55] somehow there's a difference between [16:57] these two camps how many Jewish leaders [16:59] today will come up and say I'm sorry we [17:01] have a problem with Islam its way of [17:03] life seems very conquestoriented and [17:06] seems to be not very, you know, uh, kind [17:09] of not very applicable to what we [17:11] understand and know to be American life. [17:13] The answer is precisely zero. So, do I [17:16] fault Dana Nestle for saying what she [17:18] said? No. I'm happy she let the cat out [17:20] of the bag and let our so-called leaders [17:23] actually contend with what they're doing [17:25] to keep Jews safe. Yeah. Well, I think [17:28] you're absolutely right. Obviously, [17:30] Jewish leaders are still speaking of the [17:34] issue of immigration as if it was 1920, [17:38] you know, or 1939. [17:40] >> But our grandmothers were immigrants, [17:42] right? Cuz our grandmothers put on kamas [17:44] headbands and walked around in the [17:45] street trying to find people to beat up [17:48] because of their religious beliefs. [17:49] That's an intelligent argument. [17:51] >> Yeah. I mean, but that is the argument [17:53] that they that they that they use. And [17:57] as far as confronting, you know, Islam, [18:00] um, yes, it's an issue that I know both [18:02] of us have written about, but like they [18:04] are, they don't want to do that because [18:06] they think it's not nice. They think [18:09] that doing so, you know, violates, you [18:12] know, Jewish values as they sees them [18:14] because, you know, we're all strangers [18:16] and, you know, we believe in religious [18:18] freedom and of course we do believe in [18:19] religious freedom, but you know, we just [18:21] passed the 9/11 anniversary and, you [18:25] know, much as as has been the case for [18:27] the last 25 years, you know, if you read [18:30] the New York Times, you'd think that [18:31] that the people, you know, that, you [18:33] know, 911 was an attack on Muslims and [18:36] that, you know, the Islamophobia, you [18:38] that supposedly, you know, Mayor Manni [18:41] faces is the real issue, not the fact [18:43] that he supports Islamism and you know, [18:46] so many on Muslims and mosques in in [18:49] America these days. [18:51] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yet they still, you know, [18:53] you know, yet they still treat, you [18:55] know, the Islamophobia, the the post 911 [18:58] backlash, um, which is a myth, which is [19:02] not based in anything but, you know, [19:04] anecdotes and, you know, assertions. [19:07] Whereas the post 911 surge in [19:10] anti-semitism, it didn't start on [19:12] October 7th. You know, it I mean I wrote [19:14] about this when they were trying to [19:16] build that, you know, the Muslim [19:17] community center, you know, in in the in [19:20] the footprint of ground zero. And you [19:23] know, that was, you know, why are you [19:25] being so mean saying no to that? But you [19:28] know they were saying that listen this [19:29] is this is about prejudice against [19:31] Muslims when in fact you know we've [19:34] known from the start of this debate the [19:38] last 25 years the surge in [19:41] religiousbased attacks was against Jews [19:43] not Muslims right but sadly for the last [19:47] uh you know 30 years if not more the [19:49] American Jewish community has been in [19:50] the throws of a severe public health [19:53] crisis uh we suffer from prestige [19:56] addiction [19:57] And we believe that unless we adopt the [20:00] sort of borne mo and and you know nice [20:02] ideas of those who control admissions [20:06] into the boardrooms and the classrooms [20:09] of the in the newsrooms of the [20:11] institutions that we think are the most [20:14] sacred custodians of the greater good. [20:17] Then someone would see us as somehow [20:19] being too tribal, too bearded, too [20:22] zealous, too rightwing. Um sadly again [20:26] and I say this this is a tragedy and not [20:29] anything to gloat over. Uh but this [20:31] remains the leading line of of thought [20:34] and argument for an overwhelming [20:36] majority of of those who elect [20:39] themselves to be the leaders of this [20:41] community. [20:42] >> Yeah. Although to be fair to them uh [20:45] they you know they have a leg to stand [20:47] on when they say that they are doing [20:49] what you know most of the people that [20:51] give them money and maybe most of the [20:52] people that look to these you know dying [20:55] organizations for leadership want them [20:57] to do. But but it it leads into my next [21:00] question which is you know one of the [21:03] most fundamental issues facing American [21:04] Jews is whether they can still feel at [21:07] home in places and institutions they [21:09] once called their own. And it's not just [21:11] the fact that Ivy League schools are [21:13] hostile environments. If New York City [21:16] is itself now uh as New York magazine [21:19] called it, Khabibi City, a place that [21:21] now is the stronghold of Muslims, is now [21:23] governed by a Muslim design dedicated to [21:26] Israel's destruction. What should their [21:27] response be? Um and you know, I [21:31] certainly don't see much of a response [21:33] from from many of those who call [21:35] themselves Jewish leaders, but what [21:37] should we be doing about that? Well, [21:39] first of all, this is Khabibi city for [21:40] now, but next week when the United [21:42] Nations General Assembly starts and the [21:44] Israeli prime minister visits town, this [21:46] will be BB city uh for for 5 days. What [21:51] should the response be? Uh it's a really [21:53] simple answer and it's not mine. Uh it [21:56] it was recorded in in the greatest [21:59] self-help book that we have, the Talmud. [22:02] uh which tells us what happened uh at [22:04] the time of the greatest crisis the Jews [22:06] have ever faced the destruction of the [22:08] second temple uh and we have Raban Ben [22:10] Sakai right the goat the greatest of all [22:13] time smuggling himself out of Jerusalem [22:15] going to meet the Roman general soon to [22:17] be emperor of a spacian and asking him a [22:20] series of requests and the first request [22:21] is very very telling he says give me [22:23] Yavni I understand you're about to [22:26] destroy Jerusalem I can't stand a thwart [22:28] of history yelling stop I can't make the [22:30] Romans not be the Romans I can't tell [22:32] you not to destroy Jerusalem, but I [22:34] could tell you that I want another city [22:36] where I could take all my sages and [22:37] continue Torah study. Now, think about [22:39] this. For 538 years, the temple stood. [22:43] It was the beating heart of Judaism. It [22:46] was what Judaism was. You went to the [22:49] temple to offer sacrifice twice yearly, [22:51] etc., etc. And all of a sudden, comes [22:53] Raban Sakai says, "Listen, an [22:56] institution is just an institution. Even [22:59] the earthly home of God is expendable [23:01] because what we want isn't a building. [23:04] What we want is Judaism. Similarly, what [23:06] we want isn't Columbia University or [23:09] Princeton or Yellow Harvard. What we [23:10] want is education. What we want isn't [23:12] the New York Times or the Washington [23:14] Post. It's journalism, etc., etc., etc. [23:17] the courage to come and say guys we [23:20] understand that these institution uh [23:22] really served us well served our [23:24] families well served our community well [23:27] made us you know prosperous and [23:29] influential but it's time for us to do [23:31] what Jews have always done read the [23:33] reality correctly and be instrumental in [23:36] building a new wave of institutions that [23:38] will I believe be instrumental in really [23:42] revitalizing the moral cultural [23:45] political social life of this great [23:47] ungodly nation. [23:48] >> Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. [23:50] But that is the opposite [23:52] >> of what leading Jewish organizations [23:54] have done. They didn't support uh [23:57] President Trump's efforts to force elite [23:59] schools to drop anti-semitism and the [24:01] policies that are its foundations. Um, [24:04] and you know, while there are worries [24:07] that the administration is not [24:08] continuing to prioritize that fight with [24:11] so much else on their plate, some Jews [24:13] seem to be, you know, not just being [24:15] neutral about the uh the battle over [24:18] Colombia, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, but [24:20] they're drifting back towards support of [24:22] the same universities that tolerated and [24:24] encouraged Jew hatred. And there was [24:26] there was a story in the Wall Street [24:28] Journal last week that spoke of how [24:30] Harvard somehow persuading a donor, a [24:33] major donor who had dropped his support [24:35] for them after October 7th because he [24:38] was mad about anti-semitism and now he's [24:40] resuming funding them despite their the [24:43] fact that they're continuing to fight [24:45] against Trump's policies. Do you think [24:47] most Jews understand the stakes in this [24:50] debate or willing to turn against their [24:52] alma modders the very real possibility [24:55] that most in academia are merely biting [24:57] their time until Trump leaves before [24:59] they go right back to their previous [25:01] behavior? [25:02] >> Forgive me, Jonathan. A a uh a spell of [25:04] optimism. I know it is considered rude [25:06] these days to be, you know, cheerful and [25:08] hopeful in public. [25:09] >> Go right ahead. It's the beginning of a [25:10] new year. We could use it. [25:11] >> Uh here's what I look at uh when I look [25:14] at the landscape. When I look at the [25:16] journalistic landscape, I see tablet [25:18] where I'm very proud to be [25:19] editor-inchief and I see the free press [25:22] which exists because our beloved Barry [25:25] Weiss one day looked at reality and [25:26] said, "You know what? We can do much [25:28] better than that." I see when I look at [25:30] the educational landscape, the [25:32] incredible University of Austin, Texas, [25:34] where I'm very privileged to serve as as [25:36] a fellow really educating a new [25:39] generation of students. I see nothing [25:42] but signs of great and good enterprises [25:45] that are building new institutions left [25:47] and right. It is inevitable inevitable [25:49] that a whole swarm of Jews, including [25:52] those big and scllorotic institutions, [25:55] will continue to carp about [25:56] anti-semitism. [25:58] We are victims. It's important that we [26:00] convince the world that we're victims. [26:02] But this is America, man. This is a [26:04] nation of winners. This is a nation of [26:06] builders. This is a nation of people who [26:08] don't sit and whine and carpet. Oh my [26:10] god, look how much they hate us. Let's [26:12] dedicate some time and a lot of [26:14] resources to parsing the differences [26:16] between anti-ionism, anti- anti-ionism, [26:19] anti-anti anti-ionism, anti-semitism, [26:21] etc., etc. Let's just build a new [26:23] university. Let's build a new press. [26:25] Let's build a new everything, make [26:28] money, have fun, and recreate culture. [26:31] That's what I'm seeing, and that's why [26:32] I'm I couldn't be more hopeful. [26:34] >> Well, obviously that's what we're trying [26:36] to do at JNS as well. Absolutely. we've [26:39] been growing and um gaining a wider [26:41] audience and yet um certainly you know [26:45] as much as I think you know what um you [26:48] and others have done in Austin is [26:50] amazing and there are a couple of other [26:52] examples you know Hamilton College at [26:54] the University of Florida and the new [26:56] college in Florida but you know these [26:59] are just a few things and we still have [27:03] most Jews who are dying to get their [27:05] kids into Harvard or Columbia Princeton [27:08] and Yale because they think that's the [27:10] key to success. Um, you know, I'm not [27:13] sure that I see while I see a lot of [27:16] Jews turning to different media outlets, [27:18] maybe I'm not sure that, you know, [27:21] they're ready to give up um, you know, [27:24] the elite institutions that have failed [27:27] them. Um, of course they're not. know, [27:29] you know, you know, as as the quip goes, [27:31] there weren't too many encampments or [27:33] any encampments at all at schools in the [27:35] Southeastern Conference of Football of [27:37] NAA football, but Jews are still wanting [27:40] to send their kids to the Ivy League. [27:42] Um, and the battle for the hearts and [27:46] minds of of, you know, American jewelry [27:50] right now. I'm not sure where where [27:52] that's going when it comes to saving [27:54] them from, you know, throwing their [27:57] kids, you know, into these maelstroms of [28:00] of, you know, hostility. You know, um, [28:04] Rashi tells us that only 1 of the Jews [28:08] left Egypt. Four-fifths would rather [28:11] stay behind in the house of bondage [28:12] because that's where their meal ticket [28:14] was. uh history tells us that only a [28:17] very small number of people were uh [28:20] subscribers early on to the Zionist [28:22] movement and believe that it would be [28:24] possible in our lifetime to resurrect uh [28:27] the Jewish state in our ancestral [28:29] homeland and our very eyes tell us that [28:32] right now it is the same small vanguard [28:34] the same of Jews who are saying guys we [28:37] understand change is very hard for most [28:40] humans it seems to be particularly hard [28:41] for Jews but this is our historic [28:43] calling this is the sort of uh [28:45] neverending engine of uh perpetual [28:49] spiritual renewable energy. Uh this is [28:52] the American spirit and the Jewish [28:53] spirit. Let's go do it. The numbers are [28:55] very very small, but the numbers have [28:57] always been very small and the results [28:59] have always historically been [29:01] monumental. [29:02] >> Yeah, I think I think you're right about [29:04] that. We we can't hope to change the [29:06] minds of you know people who don't who [29:08] are falling away and you know the the [29:11] process of assimilation in this country. [29:13] You know the problems you know are about [29:16] demography as much as anything else and [29:18] we know where that's going. Um but let's [29:22] turn for a moment to a different um chap [29:25] a different challenge. The choices [29:27] facing Jews apply to politics as well [29:30] with the Democrats. You know, we alluded [29:32] to Elsa and Mdani, but with the [29:34] Democrats being hijacked by the [29:36] Democratic Socialists of America and the [29:39] hard left, uh, the Republicans are still [29:41] overwhelmingly pro-Israel. But that [29:43] still leaves the question of what [29:45] happens if, as right now, it seems the [29:48] most likely outcome, although we're two [29:50] years away from 2028, if Vice President [29:53] J. D. Vance becomes the GOP's [29:55] presidential candidate while still [29:57] clinging to his friendship with Tucker [29:59] Carlson and having some other [30:01] problematic stance. What's your take on [30:03] the dilemma facing, you know, Republican [30:06] Jews, the conservatives, as we look [30:08] towards the next presidential election [30:10] cycle? [30:11] >> You know, uh, the Labba once famously [30:14] said that he doesn't believe there's [30:15] such a thing as, you know, conservative [30:17] Jews or or reformed Jews or Orthodox [30:19] Jews. They're only Jews. I similarly [30:21] don't believe that there's such a thing [30:22] as Democrat Jews or Republican Jews. [30:24] There really are only Jews. And one of [30:26] the kind of key characteristic of being [30:28] a Jew is understanding that as the name, [30:30] you know, Hebrews, those who stand on [30:32] the other end of the river, um canotes, [30:34] we're outsiders, man. And that's the [30:36] great that's the superpower. That's the [30:38] greatest strength. Uh we don't follow [30:42] any particular political partisan dogma. [30:45] We follow a much more ancient code of [30:48] behavior. And so our job uh is to do [30:51] what we've always done which is adhere [30:53] to a certain set of principles. If we do [30:55] this job correctly rather than try to [30:58] kind of you know like fight these little [31:00] fights play 5D chess now if only we [31:02] embrace this person for now and that [31:04] person we don't like JD but what choice [31:06] do we have and we have to stand by him [31:08] but if we don't etc etc etc that's just [31:10] completely stupid. The thing to do is to [31:14] say, "Guys, we have values. Those [31:17] values, they have not changed one bit. [31:20] Those values are not only Jewish values, [31:22] but as it happens, they're profoundly [31:25] American values." I'm sorry, JD Vans. I [31:29] don't not support you because I I don't [31:32] support you. Not because you are quote [31:34] unquote not friendly enough to Israel [31:37] and not even because you stand with a [31:39] vile filthy anti-semite like Tucker [31:42] Carlson. I don't support you because [31:44] every word out of your mouth sounds [31:47] profoundly unamerican to me when you say [31:50] something like, "Well, you know, uh, our [31:52] national interest is to protect [31:54] Christian churches in the Middle East." [31:56] I'm sorry, what? In what America are you [31:59] living in? Our national interest is to [32:01] protect America's national security [32:04] interests, not some kind of, you know, [32:07] tradant [32:09] of, oh, we stand with our brothers in [32:11] Christ. When you're asked about [32:13] immigration policy and your answer is [32:15] Ordo Amoris, you know, some Catholic [32:18] dogma about how we should think about [32:20] strangers, etc. I'm sorry, man. That's [32:22] just completely wrong. Not because I [32:24] don't like or want politicians to be or [32:27] public figures to be moved by their [32:29] faith. I absolutely do. But because I [32:32] want to make sure and this is a key [32:34] tenant not just of American Jews but [32:36] again of Americans period. I want to [32:38] make sure that our national debate is [32:40] guided by one principle and one [32:42] principle alone. American national [32:45] interests period. Not any kind of creed, [32:47] not any kind of belief, not any kind of [32:50] identity, anything. Just what is good [32:52] for this great and godly nation. [32:54] >> Yeah. And and I think this goes to uh a [32:58] kind of odd debate uh that is you know [33:01] sort of simmering around Jewish life in [33:04] which how do we regard ourselves in this [33:07] country um there are some people who are [33:10] reacting to the current surge of [33:12] anti-semitism which is in some ways [33:14] definitely unprecedented and it's [33:16] terrible by saying well America always [33:18] you know America always was terrible you [33:20] know we've been discriminated against [33:22] you know it's nothing new you know head [33:25] for the hills let's leave on the other [33:28] hand you know others argue I think with [33:30] with more justice that actually American [33:33] Jews have always been equal you know [33:35] despite the fact that anti-semitism [33:37] always existed you know it was never [33:40] part of the American legal or political [33:42] ethos it was always the exception to the [33:45] rule and American Jews have always been [33:47] equal partners dating back to you know [33:49] George Washington telling them that they [33:51] were um and I think our ability to [33:55] navigate this very difficult you know [33:58] sort of political situation in which the [34:01] left is turned against us and the right [34:03] might um you know we should have the [34:06] self-confidence to understand that most [34:10] Americans are not against us no matter [34:12] who is leading the two major parties and [34:15] that we should have confidence in our [34:17] ability to stand up for ourselves just [34:19] as we should when confronted in [34:21] synagogue you know when confronted by [34:22] violent anti-semitis we should have the [34:24] confidence to stand up for ourselves no [34:26] matter who's in charge of of either [34:29] party. [34:30] >> Uh my dog, as you could hear in the [34:32] background, agrees with you vocally and [34:34] enthusiastically. Uh it while while I [34:37] agree uh completely with with the [34:40] premise of us having to stand up and [34:41] defend ourselves, um my beard compels me [34:45] to take things in a in a slightly [34:47] different direction and answer that we [34:49] should have confidence not just in [34:51] ourselves and our ability to protect [34:53] ourselves but in something much bigger. [34:55] We should have confidence in the United [34:57] States of America. Um, I think I've said [35:00] this before in our previous [35:01] conversations, so forgive me if I repeat [35:03] myself, but the most thing about this [35:05] country is the name that the beautiful [35:08] Hebrew language gives it. These are, [35:10] we're told, [35:13] the lands of the covenant. This is a [35:15] covenantal nation, which means that it [35:17] is a nation that every generation or [35:19] every couple of generations renews its [35:21] covenant with its creator. And here's [35:23] the thing that we know about covenants [35:25] just by reading the Torah. No covenant [35:27] looks the same. No renewal looks the [35:30] same. We've done it in 1776. We've done [35:32] it in 1861 when we realized it was time [35:35] once again to let you know freedom ring [35:37] throughout the land. We've done it in [35:39] the 1960s and now we are doing it again. [35:41] Our job as Jews right now is not to [35:43] think like, okay, well, what's good for [35:45] the Jews? Because what is good for the [35:46] Jews is good for America. Our job right [35:49] now is to be what we have always been [35:52] for this country. to borrow a phrase, a [35:54] moral defibrillator to remind this [35:56] country that it is predicated very much [35:58] on division of the Hebrew Bible and its [36:02] prophets to remind this nation of what [36:04] it truly is. And if we do that, and [36:06] you're completely right, we would just [36:08] remind the majority of Americans of what [36:11] they already know and what they've [36:12] always believed, which is this is a [36:14] nation like no other, which is this is a [36:16] nation with a unique divine mission, and [36:19] this is a nation that is here to shine [36:21] light on a benited world. and Jews play [36:23] a huge part in shining of this light. [36:25] This is the job. It's very, very simple. [36:28] It's not about politics. It's not even [36:30] about security and safety. It's about [36:32] much loftier things. And previous [36:34] generations of Jews seem to understand [36:36] it innately. I'm praying that we do, [36:38] too. [36:39] >> Yeah, I I think you're right there. Um, [36:42] now, of course, American Jews aren't the [36:44] only ones who are either, you know, [36:47] lying down or rallying around the [36:49] anti-semites. We just in this last week [36:51] um the story about Israeli documentary [36:53] filmmakers Yuval Abraham and Rachel Soar [36:56] who worked with the Guardian to produce [36:59] of Naza a film that spreads a blood liel [37:02] that the IDF used AI to commit war [37:05] crimes in Gaza. Uh while most Israelis [37:08] are angry about this betrayal, obviously [37:10] there is a you know a fact there is a [37:13] section of Israeli society I guess the [37:15] people that read Harets [37:17] um who think that you know these people [37:19] are righteous uh you know witnesses and [37:23] uh you know Jews should you know undress [37:25] themselves and question their their [37:28] right of self-defense. How do we place [37:31] this sort of thing in the context of a [37:33] global surge of anti-semitism when even [37:36] some Israelis want to surrender to it? [37:38] And I guess sort of my follow-up [37:40] question, you could take it that first [37:42] or second. Wasn't it inevitable that [37:46] with all the apocalyptic talk about AI [37:49] right now, which somehow in the last [37:51] couple of weeks, you know, became the [37:53] the chief subject of conversation, you [37:55] know, in the New York Times and [37:57] elsewhere. Um and I think I think as [38:00] Neil Ferguson said when when when a when [38:02] a topic becomes uh generally discussed [38:04] in this way that's when you know [38:06] sensible commentary ends. Uh what wasn't [38:09] it inevitable that they would eventually [38:11] get around to blame you know AI being [38:13] blamed on the Jews? [38:15] Absolutely it was. Uh look I I I want to [38:17] take this is this is a a kind of big [38:19] complicated question. So, I want to [38:21] start with a uh with a somewhat grim [38:24] correction because I feel I've been, you [38:26] know, way way too cheerful in the last [38:28] couple of minutes. I want to correct [38:30] this impression. I want to bring [38:31] everything down a few notches. Look, um, [38:35] it's not fair to blame simply a, you [38:38] know, sliver of Israeli intellectual [38:40] elite harits and, you know, North Tel [38:43] Aviv coffee shop dwellers in supporting [38:47] this absolutely [38:49] incredibly attempt at [38:52] bismerching uh, the IDF. Uh, I think if [38:56] you look at the actions of the IDF [38:58] itself, uh, they give away the game [39:01] completely. a few weeks ago when a few [39:04] IDF soldiers were ordered by their [39:07] 22-year-old commander to get in an [39:10] armored personal carrier with a female [39:12] medic and refused. These soldiers were [39:15] immediately a found out, b tried, three [39:20] or c sent to jail, and d made a huge [39:24] kind of case of in the national press [39:26] say like we will not tolerate these [39:29] bearded zealots not respecting women in [39:32] the IDF. It has now been almost three [39:35] weeks. We know for a fact that there are [39:37] 24 soldiers. We know according to most [39:40] rep who who appeared in this movie uh [39:43] anonymously. We know according to most [39:45] report that most of these soldiers [39:47] belong to the vaunted unit 8200 the tip [39:51] of the spear of the startup nation where [39:54] all the people the smart people of [39:56] Israel go. Not a single army officer [40:00] including the chief of staff who gave a [40:02] convened a large meeting about this the [40:04] other day said you know what we're going [40:05] to find these people. We're going to [40:07] court marshall them because if anything [40:08] else they, you know, relayed kind of [40:12] classified information, operational [40:14] information to their forget ideology, [40:16] it's just something that an army cannot [40:19] afford to do. The fact that they haven't [40:20] done it tells you that the narrative in [40:22] Israel and not just among its readers, [40:25] among the top generals of the IDF is [40:29] still infected with the same prestige [40:31] addiction that we talked about a minute [40:33] ago. They too want to make sure that the [40:35] people who sit in the editorial board of [40:37] the New York Times understand that they [40:39] are not like the crazies, not like the [40:41] bearded maniacs. They are good, [40:43] sensible, you know, lawabiding people. [40:46] They fall to the same trap that Jean [40:48] Paulor Thak found or or described very [40:51] very well which is the trap of the [40:53] anti-semite accusing the Jew of stealing [40:55] not because he believes that the Jew had [40:57] taken something but because he wants the [40:59] pleasure of watching the Jew in pro [41:01] protest take out and shake out his [41:03] pockets to prove that he's innocent. The [41:05] solution here is very very very simple. [41:08] Stop stop playing into this. It's the [41:12] same thing all over again. When it comes [41:14] to AI, it's the fault of the Jews. When [41:17] it comes to the Moroccan overtake of [41:19] Spain, it's the fault of the Jews. When [41:22] it comes to the World Cup, it's the [41:23] fault of the Jews. There is nothing that [41:25] these animals would not lie about. There [41:28] is no story that they will not co-opt to [41:30] try and make the Jews look like they're [41:32] to blame. And they do it because they [41:34] know that the Jews, the dumbest smart [41:37] people on earth, would leap right into [41:39] the trap, be like, "That's not us. [41:41] Here's proof. Let us show you." instead [41:43] of saying like, you know what, yeah, and [41:46] and then saying some things that I can't [41:47] say on this podcast, but ought to be [41:50] said outratly. I'll give you an example [41:52] of of of where we saw this this, you [41:54] know, kind of thwarted logic. when the [41:57] uh Gaza war started, you know, right [41:59] after the attacks of October 7th, it was [42:01] this kind of right of passage uh for [42:04] people to go uh for Israeli spokespeople [42:06] and and pro-Israeli spokespeople to go [42:08] on and really try very hard to contest [42:11] the Palestinian numbers of how many [42:13] people were killed in Gaza, et [42:17] guys, we don't here's the moral honest [42:20] answer. I don't care. You started a [42:23] genocidal war against my people. When [42:26] that happens, my only duty, one and [42:30] only, is to defend my people. The [42:32] British understood this during World War [42:34] II. No one counted this movie that we [42:36] talked about, it's its title, Naza, is [42:38] Hebra Nisika gave or collateral damage. [42:41] Think the Brits cared about collateral [42:43] damage when they bombed Dresden. Think [42:45] the Americans cared about collateral [42:47] damage when they bombed Japan? No, they [42:48] didn't. because they understood very [42:50] well that when you're fighting a [42:52] genocidal, totalitarian, evil Nazilike [42:54] regime, you have to win. It is paramount [42:58] for your survival and the survival of [43:00] Western civilization that this regime, [43:03] this ideology be eradicated, and it can [43:05] be eradicated, which we proved very [43:07] easily in 1945. So, this whole [43:10] discussion is so silly. It's so [43:12] listless. It's so spineless and we don't [43:14] seem to be learning from mistakes. [43:17] >> Yeah, I think you're right. Obviously um [43:19] there is something odd about the fact [43:21] that the you know the IDF [43:24] responded really to the they've been [43:26] criticized before. I mean a lot at our [43:28] you know editori editorial meeting we [43:31] were discussing how the the army seemed [43:33] more upset by this accusation than most [43:37] any previous accusations against them [43:39] and yet you're right they haven't [43:41] investigated who who's responsible for [43:43] for these leaks. Um, I think it also [43:46] applies to the other, you know, sort of [43:48] dominant issue in the discussion of [43:50] Israel, which is quote unquote settler [43:52] violence. Um, which is for the most [43:55] part, you know, just like an information [43:57] op. I mean, anybody who's been to the, [44:00] you know, the Judea and Samaria knows [44:02] that terrorism is a daily thing there. [44:05] But it's not the Jews attacking the [44:06] Arabs, it's the Arabs attacking the [44:08] Jews. Um, and yet, uh, this becomes not [44:13] only a talking point that most liberal [44:15] Jews in the United States, you know, [44:16] take as a given that it's true that [44:18] they're bad Jews and doing bad things [44:22] and this, you know, justifies all sorts [44:25] of sanctions or whatever, but the fact [44:27] that it's it's kind of basically just [44:29] bunk. Um, of course I mean, you know, [44:32] there there there may be a few, you [44:34] know, like there are some, you know, [44:35] juvenile delinquents as, uh, as [44:38] Netanyahu refers to them, but the main [44:40] thing is, you know, most of what is [44:42] called settler violence is just Jews [44:44] defending themselves against Arab [44:46] terrorism. Um, it's the same it's the [44:49] same story here, isn't it, [44:50] >> Jonathan? This is this is I'm so glad [44:52] you brought it up because this is truly [44:54] uh, and I don't use this word lightly, [44:56] probably the greatest blood liel of our [44:59] time. I have on numerous occasions as [45:01] have other contributors and tablet as of [45:03] course also excellently on JNS uh [45:06] reported on this issue by looking at [45:09] every single accusation of the hundreds [45:11] and hundreds and hundreds of accusations [45:12] made of uh the so-called very violent [45:16] settlers attacking poor innocent [45:18] Palestinians. Uh the answer is very very [45:21] simple. It's definitive. It's clear. [45:23] It's easy to understand. there is [45:25] precisely zero zero evidence of sort of [45:29] a a ground swell of uh settler violence [45:33] uh against Palestinians. First of all, [45:35] because these reports are thwarted in in [45:38] almost comical ways, they count among [45:40] the so-called victims of settler [45:42] violence suicide bombers who killed [45:44] three four Jews and then were shot to [45:46] death by security forces. Those are poor [45:48] innocent Palestinians killed, you know, [45:50] in in the line of duty. Furthermore, as [45:52] you said very very correctly, in in [45:54] almost every case, and by almost every [45:56] case, I mean 99.9999%. [45:59] When you see any kind of altercation, [46:01] you will learn that it began because [46:04] Palestinians actively and deliberately, [46:07] violently provoked Israelis or Jews in [46:11] Judea and Samaria into some sort of [46:13] conflict. If you want to resolve [46:15] violence in Judean Samaria and I think [46:18] it's a very important issue because I am [46:21] very fearful that we are looking at [46:23] another October October 7th on a much [46:26] larger scale emanating not from Gaza [46:27] which is much harder to get out of but [46:29] out of you know Shrem and Ramala and and [46:32] Blem and all these places. Uh if you [46:35] want to stop that from happening, you [46:38] have to be serious about the one and [46:40] only cause of violence in Samaria, which [46:44] is Palestinian um hateful attempts at [46:48] attacking Israelis repeatedly. Until you [46:52] do that, until you force the PA for [46:54] example to honor the Oscel Accords that [46:58] it signed and you know disarm its [47:00] members in certain places and adhere to [47:03] the rules that it itself agreed to. Uh [47:05] you are again sending a message that you [47:07] are weak that you are willing to put up [47:10] with violence that there will be no [47:12] price to pay and you will be there [47:15] nothing but more and more and more [47:17] violence against Jews. And to see so [47:20] many otherwise right-thinking people [47:22] like the other day the Rav of of the [47:24] yeshiva and the gush saying this is a [47:27] moral outrage. I'm sorry but I find that [47:30] absolutely morally, intellectually and [47:34] emotionally revolting. Every Jew in [47:37] their right mind right now needs to [47:38] stand with our brothers in Yudan and [47:40] Shamuan and say these are the people on [47:43] our front lines fighting our war against [47:46] the enemy that as we've seen time and [47:48] again is out there to eradicate and [47:50] destroy us. I support these people. I [47:53] love these people and I wish that the [47:54] blood liel would be uh brought to an end [47:58] soon. [48:00] >> Yeah. Let me just conclude with one more [48:03] question. Um and that's how should we [48:06] regard um you know we've been hearing [48:09] you know European countries condemn [48:11] Israel um for as long as we can remember [48:15] um the latest idea of sanctioning you [48:17] know Jews who live in Yehud and Shamron [48:20] um and products there. It seems to me [48:23] it's just the first step towards [48:24] boycotting Israel alto together. Um, are [48:28] you optimistic about Israel's ability to [48:30] sort of uh withstand the this uh you [48:34] know this uh tsunami of uh of you know [48:37] sort of uh moral approprium um based as [48:41] we've as we both agree and mostly in [48:43] lies um or is this something you know [48:46] there are a lot of people who worry that [48:49] the isolation of Israel is something [48:51] that is a is a greater threat than [48:54] perhaps we're acknowledging. Um, I again [48:58] I'm I'm going back to my cheerful stuff [49:01] now. Look, uh, my my dear friend David [49:05] Goldman has a a uh quote that I really [49:08] love repeating. He likes to say, "It's [49:11] not the end of the world. It's just the [49:13] end of you." Uh, this is basically what [49:16] I say to England, to France, to Germany. [49:18] Guys, it's not the end of the world. It [49:20] is most certainly the end of you. Uh, [49:23] good luck. Good luck to all of you as [49:26] you continue to descend and spiral into [49:29] absolute conquest by your Muslim [49:31] overlords. As you are no longer free [49:34] countries in England, for example, you [49:36] go to jail for speaking the truth about [49:38] Islam. As you cower in fear of uh you [49:43] know your own shadow, that is fantastic. [49:45] If you think for one moment that you are [49:47] major players on the world stage because [49:50] you have this name Britain that used to [49:52] mean something 50 or 60 or 70 years ago, [49:55] you're out of your mind. Meanwhile, uh [49:57] who would you rather be right now? the [49:59] besieged conquered nation of of Britain [50:03] or Israelis who manufacture tremendous [50:06] amount of terrific defense technologies [50:09] who understand exactly why they're alive [50:12] and what they're living for who have [50:14] many many many more children who have a [50:16] clarity in the sense of their purpose [50:17] and a joy to defend their homeland the [50:19] answer is very simple one of these [50:21] nations is going to live and thrive the [50:23] other nation is done that's number one [50:25] number two this myth of isolation isn't [50:28] even true I'm Sorry, but like Mod's [50:30] visit to Israel the other year, which by [50:33] the way was universally ignored by the [50:36] Israeli press because the headline that [50:38] day is like BB's trial year 18 and we [50:42] found precisely zero evidence against [50:44] this man. But the trial goes on because [50:47] eventually we will manufacture something [50:49] in the teeny tiny quarter on page like [50:52] 15 of the newspaper. Oh, by the way, the [50:55] head of a country with Lord knows how [50:57] many billions of people comes to visit [50:59] Israel and loves us and supports us. [51:02] There are so many countries all over the [51:04] world uh that are waking up to the same [51:07] truths that are facing the same [51:08] challenge. You find them in Asia, you [51:10] find them in Eastern Europe, you find [51:12] them in the Arab Peninsula, you find [51:16] them everywhere. And they want to live. [51:18] You know why? Because, and I will say [51:20] something that sounds crazy here, but I [51:21] believe it's true. because there's [51:23] Zionists. [51:24] Alana New House, my dear friend and and [51:26] Tablet's boss, wrote a great piece for [51:28] Tablet about how Zionism is really the [51:31] cure for everything. And she has a a [51:33] moment in there where she cites a great [51:35] uh section out of Michelle Walbeck's [51:38] recent book, not most recent, but one of [51:40] his recent books called Submission in [51:42] which very very fictional scenario, [51:44] right? um Muslims have taken over France [51:47] and this uh lecturer has to decide [51:49] whether he converts to Islam or loses [51:52] his plum job at the sorbone. He has a [51:54] Jewish girlfriend of course and she says [51:56] I'm going to I'm moving to Israel and he [51:59] says something like I wish I had an [52:00] Israel to go to. And Alana writes in her [52:02] piece beautifully. You do. It's called [52:05] France. Fight for it. Defend it. Stand [52:08] up to its values. That's what Zionism [52:10] is. Belief in the future. Belief in your [52:12] people. belief in your national purpose. [52:15] I think a lot of people in the Gulf [52:17] States have that. I think a lot of [52:18] people in India have that. I think a lot [52:20] of people in the in the still, you know, [52:22] enlightened parts of Europe have that. I [52:24] think almost every American have that. [52:26] These people are inherently Zionist and [52:29] that is why they will win. The rest of [52:32] the world, as my grandmother would say, [52:34] gay. [52:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I [52:37] think um I concluded my column on this [52:40] uh subject last week with the same [52:42] thing. They are they they are doing more [52:44] damage to themselves than they could [52:45] ever do to Israel or the Jewish people. [52:48] And I think that's a good moment for us [52:49] to end on now. A mutual moment of [52:52] optimism. Uh Liil, thanks so much for [52:54] joining us today. How can our viewers [52:56] and listeners follow your work? [52:58] >> Tabletmag.com. [53:01] >> Okay, simple. Um we also want to thank [53:04] our audience. Please remember to tune in [53:06] every day for Jonathan Tobin Daily [53:08] Edition, which you can hear wherever you [53:10] get your podcasts. And whether you're [53:12] listening to us on any one of those, [53:14] watching us live on Facebook or X or on [53:16] the JNS YouTube channel, please like and [53:19] or subscribe to JNS. Click on the bell [53:21] for notifications and give us good [53:23] reviews. Please write to us at think [53:25] twice at jns.org. Let us know where you [53:28] listen or watch the show and what you [53:30] think about it. And remember, keep [53:31] reading and thinking for yourself. And [53:34] we'll see you again next week.
